Switching Seats

[Illya Kuryakin]

To start off. We switch seats. He/She who flys, does so from the left front seat.
Do you switch seats? If not, why not?
I realize, anybody flying FO on a Dash, or heavier does so from the right.
But if you don't switch seats, what do you fly?
Our guys train, do their rides, and fly left seat. Across the board. Personally, I think it's a better way. So is wearing jeans...but that's another topic, isn't it.
Perhaps, in the case of tiller steering, on the left side only, I can see not switching.....otherwise?
Thoughts
Illya

[Liquid Charlie]

If the guy is captain qualified and you are right seat qualified and you have the blessing of flight ops -- but personally I hate switching seats -- and of course the guy in the right seat has to be able to fly, land and be qualified to fly the aircraft from that position -- maybe under 703 this is not an issue but 704/5 it is ---

Most airlines have a policy against switching seats because each flight has a designated captain if there are 2 captains flying together other than that the guy in the right seat is just not qualified to sit there without be checked as a captain which most are not --

Even aircraft that are OK single pilot the person in the left seat has to be qualified to occupy that seat -- if your company trains everyone as a captain then you don't have first officers but at the end of the day -- which guy is in charge and as stated before each guy under 704/5 needs to be qualified in any seat he flies from -- that means it is not legal for a captain to fly from the right seat unless he has done the qualification ---

[Cat Driver]

The first company I flew for that switched seats was Mobil Oil in the Douglas Racer, it was a very good system as it gave everyone a bit of variety.

By the way they did not have any F.O. positions as all the pilots were Captain qualified.

[kev994]

C130 RCAF we switch seats. Everyone generally does their ticket ride from the left seat. I don't think it's unusual to have the ability to make command decisions from both seats, or even standing with 2 FOs in the seat (similar to a PICUS program). The Herc has tiller stearing on the left only, no big deal. Though if I'm going to a short field you can bet I'm taking the left myself.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Kind of looking for feedback from BE02 and smaller. Can't imagine not switching seats in something like a HO, etc.
Illya

[Meatservo]

There's controls on both sides. Why is it particularly important to be on the left one? Does it make people feel more important? When I'm in the right seat, I fly from there when it's my turn. I find it pleasantly challenging to try and fly as well from that side as I do from the side I am used to.

Usually though, I have the seat as far back and as far down as I like it, and the rudder pedals cranked to where I like them, and all my stuff is down beside the seat, and my headset is plugged in to my box, and I am not interested in having to switch it all around every leg. I spend all day in there.

If the company S.O.P. says the skipper sits in the left seat, I guess that's where the skipper better be found sitting when things go wrong.

In general I feel people would be better served to try and get as good as they can at the job they already have, rather than getting a kick out of pretending to do someone else's. There's no shame in being a co-pilot. When it's your turn to sit in the captain's seat, you'll figure it out pretty quick. I never saw anyone have any trouble with it.

Another thing that confuses me about this conversation are the guys who say they don't have First Officers because everyone is a captain. Of course you have first officers. Any plane can only have one captain at any one time. That makes the other guy the first officer. It doesn't matter if he is "a" captain. He isn't "the" captain as long as someone else is. There is only ever one captain. Otherwise, you're not a crew, you're a committee.

[Cat Driver]

At Mobil Oil all the pilots were Captain qualified, we generally flew with three pilots as the days were long and the pilots changed seats each leg of the day.

We serviced Mobils oil rigs out of Calgary as far north as Inuvik hense the long days and three crew.

As far as hirichary was conserned everyone was paid the same and which seat you sat in was not an issue.

When it was your turn in the left seat you accepted the responsibility of being captain and there was never any problem with that concept.

[TG]

In general I feel people would be better served to try and get as good as they can at the job they already have, rather than getting a kick out of pretending to do someone else's. There's no shame in being a co-pilot. When it's your turn to sit in the captain's seat, you'll figure it out pretty quick. I never saw anyone have any trouble with it.

It's not about a shame as being co-pilot.

Us we swap every week if we are both Captain (one month rotation, 702, >12500lbs)
I'm like Liquid Charlie, I don't really enjoy switching seat. You start feeling comfortable in one position and hop you get to be on the other side.

On top of that I don't have much right seat time, so when I play the co-pilot I have to find some bearing back. Bearing that I never really had.
What I'm saying is I do not feel as competent sitting right as I would be sitting left that's all. Eventually I will get there.
On the other side, it gives chance to every one (with the correct qualifications) to fly left seat.

Cat, I remember you were saying something very true in another topic.
Something like: When you get too experienced on one machine you end up babysitting the new Captains from the right seat. And don't fly much any more from the left.
I'm not there yet but I guess I better get used to the idea


Edit: We do have a conversion training.

[cdnpilot77]

We, for the most part in our citations, switch seats with the PF in the left seat. It's a different view and a different feel, keeps things fresh. I like it!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Left/Right, Front/Back, personally I really don't care where I sit as I am comfortable in any position. The important part is to perform the duties appropriate to the position for that flight.

If I am in the right seat acting as an FO then FO duties are what I do. If I am in the right seat as a training Captain or as an Instructor then obviously the job is very different as is the job of sitting in the left seat.

The problems usually occur when pilots try to do the other guys job.

My personal experience has been that good FO's make good Captains, crappy FO's usually make poor Captains and the worst are the guys that valued their personal worth by the seat they sat in.

[Cat Driver]

Cat, I remember you were saying something very true in another topic.
Something like: When you get too experienced on one machine you end up babysitting the new Captains from the right seat. And don't fly much any more from the left.
I'm not there yet but I guess I better get used to the idea.

I never could figure out what real difference it makes what seat you are sitting in when flying.

Sure things are in a different position when you change seats.....but before you move something it is common sense to know what you are moving and why.


Another thing about flying for Mobil Oil, that was where I learned the PMA crew co-ordination method for safer bad weather landings.

[Gannet167]

In Air Mobility in the Air Force, junior first officers sit in the left seat as soon as possible. Generally, switching every leg between left and right. They are all being trained on a fairly aggressive upgrade program to make them aircraft captains. Along this line of thinking, they are given left seat opportunity and exposure as soon as they demonstrate good enough hands and and feet. They learn both roles and all of the aircraft systems and checklist operation from each seat very well. Overall aircraft systems and CRM competence is relatively high when they go for their AC check ride - with a target of 24 months from initial course on the air frame. Often guys with less than 1000 hrs are checking out as captains on C17's, Herc's and A310's. They have to know both seats, both PM and PF, all systems and checklists, and the ability to operate, lead and teach from either seat to the other one.

[iflyforpie]

I fly from the back seat..... until the Captain and F/O both have fish for dinner and I have to show off my Maverick skills.

[B52]

My view is that if you have an ego, sure, ask to change seats.
If your cojoe wants to sit in the left , no problem as long as
your are comfortable with the idea.

If the other pilot needs to practice skills, then let them do the flying,
it's not a competition to see who can play with the stick.

I don't care what seat I'm sitting in, however I do prefer
the most challenging, like the rear seat in a Decathalon
or the front seat of a pitts.

[J31]

Under Canadian Air Regulations (CAR's 703, 704, 705) there is a requirement for a left seat qualified pilot to have annual "Right Seat Conversion Training" to operate an aircraft from the right seat.

I find it perplexing that there are many operators that the right seat pilot never flies the aircraft. Defeats the redundancy of two crew in event of a left seat pilot incapacitation.

[Meatservo]

I guess I just don't understand what's so magical about the left-hand seat. There's controls in both. If the guy flying always occupies the left one, is there anyone who is comfortable using the controls in the right one? What are they there for? Why does everybody need a "chance" to fly in the left seat? Is it special? I think if you're going to flop back and forth, you should do it on odd&even days or something. Every leg sounds like a lot of work. One pilot's name goes in the "PIC" column in the logbook and it doesn't matter which seat he's in.

[trey kule]

I find it pleasantly challenging to try and fly as well from that side as I do from the side I am used to.

I have to wonder if your pax knew you found it 'pleasantly challenging'. If they would welcome your efforts.

Safety is a word so bandied around, yet in practice ignored. More fun to be challenged than fly as safe as possible I guess. Perhaps if you want to be challenged you could reserve it for a dedicated training flight, and keep it that way until the right seat does not present you with a challenge...pleasant or not.

Generally, I dont think that in any commercial ops , seat switching should be at the crew or captain's discretion.....

[complexintentions]

For our ops a captain has to be in the left seat for takeoff and landing, and an FO or captain with the "right-hand qualification" box ticked, in the right. Either seat can conduct takeoffs and landings, of course, and there is a tiller on both sides. But there is no "switching seats" permitted. In cruise either rank can occupy either seat (for augmented ops).

But depending on the length of the flight our crew complement could be:

-one CA and one FO
-two captains (training flight)
-Two CA's and two FO's
-One CA and two FO's
-Two CA's and one FO

So, I prefer to sleep in the bunk and let everyone else argue about who sits where.

[Meatservo]

I find it pleasantly challenging to try and fly as well from that side as I do from the side I am used to.

I have to wonder if your pax knew you found it 'pleasantly challenging'. If they would welcome your efforts.

Ah, it's the grammar that's giving you a hard time. Note where I said "I find it pleasantly challenging to fly as well from that side as the side I am used to. I guess your concern might revolve around the fact that you don't know whether I know what I'm doing from either side!

To put your mind at ease, I am the training captain at my company. I really only fly in the right seat when I am conducting initial or line indoctrination training with a new captain, line checks on experienced ones, or on my own recurrent training flights during which I am doing the mandatory right-seat portion in order to be qualified on both sides. Without sounding boastful or trying to put too fine a point on it, I am as good at flying from the right seat as most people are from the left, yet I am still better at it from the left. I find it "pleasantly challenging" to fly as well from the right seat as I do from the left one. I am also successful. The passengers would never know the difference. I've had my job for many years, and a large number of my passengers recognize me. They all seem to welcome my efforts and sometimes seem amused to find me in the right side of the cockpit. I'm confident they "welcome my efforts" from either seat.

Like you, I disapprove of "seat switching" simply because I haven't heard yet why it's better or even necessary. Certainly if both all crew members are qualified in both seats you could decide at the beginning of the day who is going to be captain and leave it at that. Hopping back and forth leg-after-leg is silly. If you're qualified to fly on either side, you should practice flying from either side.

It is certainly possible to find your job challenging and still be perfectly safe. I feel sorry for people who don't.

Thank you for the opportunity to clarify my point of view, Trey Kule.

[Liquid Charlie]

I find it perplexing that there are many operators that the right seat pilot never flies the aircraft. Defeats the redundancy of two crew in event of a left seat pilot incapacitation.

Ah there you have opened the dirty little corner of our industry -- cheap wantabees as slave labour warming a seat to allow single pilot ops to go to a full duty day.

One pilot's name goes in the "PIC" column in the logbook and it doesn't matter which seat he's in.

-- but it does -- he needs to be qualified in that position

Now back to the original poster -- one question -- if all your rides are done from the left seat for all your pilots -- unless they complete the required training from the "other" seat you are actually operating as single pilot because from what I read no one trains from the right seat or am I mistaken ??

[J31]

I find it perplexing that there are many operators that the right seat pilot never flies the aircraft. Defeats the redundancy of two crew in event of a left seat pilot incapacitation.

Ah there you have opened the dirty little corner of our industry -- cheap wantabees as slave labour warming a seat to allow single pilot ops to go to a full duty day.

Well no....I am referring to very experienced captains that only do PF duties in the left seat. They have never taken off, landed, or handled an engine out using the right seat controls.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I guess I just don't understand what's so magical about the left-hand seat. There's controls in both. If the guy flying always occupies the left one, is there anyone who is comfortable using the controls in the right one? What are they there for? Why does everybody need a "chance" to fly in the left seat? Is it special? I think if you're going to flop back and forth, you should do it on odd&even days or something. Every leg sounds like a lot of work. One pilot's name goes in the "PIC" column in the logbook and it doesn't matter which seat he's in.

Meat, you strike me as someone who's really hung up on the Captain, FO/Master, Slave/King, Knave/Master, Servant relationship in a cockpit? Again, in airline operations (real ones with airliners) it's a given, who sits in which seat. There's nothing "magical" about which seat you sit in. Is there? For you? Does it bother you that somebody, shall we say subordinate to you sits in "your" seat? Hell mate, I like nothing better than to kick back in the right seat and run radios and do paperwork. As for switching every leg being "a lot of work..." Seriously? The what, 14 seconds it takes to trade headsets wear you out? I'm getting old too....that is a load of physical labour to be sure.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

Now back to the original poster -- one question -- if all your rides are done from the left seat for all your pilots -- unless they complete the required training from the "other" seat you are actually operating as single pilot because from what I read no one trains from the right seat or am I mistaken ??

No worries, everybody does the required right seat conversion training. We fly "little" airplanes, as you know, and we all find the right seat a little "strange" what with the go levers on the wrong side and all. But, rest assured, we can all survive a trip flying from the right. We just don't.
Illya

[flyinthebug]

Under Canadian Air Regulations (CAR's 703, 704, 705) there is a requirement for a left seat qualified pilot to have annual "Right Seat Conversion Training" to operate an aircraft from the right seat.

This very valid point had been pretty much overlooked until Illya just cleared it up from his companies perspective at least. To those companies/pilots who "switch seats" and haven't documented that your crews are receiving right seat conversion training, you will be in for a bit of a surprise the next time one of your aircraft get ramped. If the Captain is sitting in the right seat and hasn't received his/her right seat conversion training...that opens the door to countless CAR violations. I know 2 guys & companies that were both fined (heavily) for doing exactly this practice without doing the required training.

Im all for it and many times in my career I handed my seat to the FO. As Illya said, I gladly operated the radios and monitored systems while I did the paperwork.

The fact remains though that if you happen to get "caught" for whatever reason switching seats without the proper and documented right seat conversion training...you are opening yourself to enforcement action. Just so you know. If you do practice this at your company, please ensure you have your crews right seat conversion trained.

Fly safe all.
FTB

[Illya Kuryakin]

Meat, your comment "I'm as good from the right seat as most are from the left.....but I'm better in the left....", gave me a good chuckle. In my brief experience in an aircraft so equipped, I found that the auto land seemed to work equally well, from either side.
Illya