Cessna - Glider Midair Collision near Pemberton

[bizjets101]

Aircraft involved;

C-FHAB Stemme S10-VT Owner, passenger. (Based Pemberton Airport)

C-FSQQ Cessna 150F Husband, Wife, family dog. (Based 100 Mile House Airport)

[white_knuckle_flyer]

...it's worth pointing out that if a collision seems likely, that vertical excursions (push or pull) are a quicker way out than turns. Assuming you both start straight and level, of course.

I assume that the reason training units advocate right-hand turns is because lateral movement is the only action that can be undertaken by both pilots to produce separation. It's fine if only one pilot pulls or if one pulls and the other pushes, but of course both pulling or pushing will not effect change. Probably not a convincing argument to seasoned pilots but I think it is a good way to introduce newbs to the concept of ac separation.

Although, that said, a right hand turn doesn't make complete sense to me for a number of scenarios and I wish my training had included far more theory on which collision avoidance manoeuvres are best under which circumstances. I would be more than interested if someone opened a thread on how a low-time pilot should resolve conflicts under a variety of different conditions.

[Sidebar]

I assume that the reason training units advocate right-hand turns is because lateral movement is the only action that can be undertaken by both pilots to produce separation.

Maybe this is the reason for promoting a right turn?

CAR 602.19 (5) Where two aircraft are approaching head-on or approximately so and there is a risk of collision, the pilot-in-command of each aircraft shall alter its heading to the right.

... how a low-time pilot should resolve conflicts under a variety of different conditions.

See http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#602_19 for the current regulation on right of way. It addresses a number of possible scenarios.

[Doc]

This is tragic. The only defence is the Mark 1 eyeball. Pilots don't realize how difficult it i to see other airplanes in flight against some backgrounds. Anything remaining stationary in your windshield is a major threat. Keep you eyes outside.....even then, you have blind spots. Good position reports can help, I guess, but most are too long winded and often ignored. Scratch that. The head on a swivel really is the ONLY defence.
Be careful out there. You are NOT alone.

[eaglepilot]

My condolences to all involved.

In 1999, I was being checked out in a new (to me) aircraft in a practice area near Boundary Bay airport, we (the check pilot and myself) had three instances of see and avoid within 15 min, we decided it was too busy for us that day, we needed to be up when it was quieter so that I could absorb the info instead of (as well as) looking out for conflicts.

Turns out there was a fatal midair 1 hour after we landed.

It can happen to anyone at anytime. I always remember that whenever I fly. Just because I am a careful pilot, does not that I can avoid an incident/accident.

[cap41]

...it's worth pointing out that if a collision seems likely, that vertical excursions (push or pull) are a quicker way out than turns. Assuming you both start straight and level, of course.

I assume that the reason training units advocate right-hand turns is because lateral movement is the only action that can be undertaken by both pilots to produce separation. It's fine if only one pilot pulls or if one pulls and the other pushes, but of course both pulling or pushing will not effect change. Probably not a convincing argument to seasoned pilots but I think it is a good way to introduce newbs to the concept of ac separation.

Although, that said, a right hand turn doesn't make complete sense to me for a number of scenarios and I wish my training had included far more theory on which collision avoidance manoeuvres are best under which circumstances. I would be more than interested if someone opened a thread on how a low-time pilot should resolve conflicts under a variety of different conditions.

Being a recent PPL grad this question is asked on the TC exam. It's also asked on the PSTAR exam.

[goldeneagle]

Although, that said, a right hand turn doesn't make complete sense to me for a number of scenarios and I wish my training had included far more theory on which collision avoidance manoeuvres are best under which circumstances. I would be more than interested if someone opened a thread on how a low-time pilot should resolve conflicts under a variety of different conditions.

The problem is this, in the time you take analyzing and trying to determine what is best, it's already happened. The training is for 'right turn' to make it instinctive, and consistent. If you start the right turn at the same time you start the process of deciding 'should I push, or pull, or what ?', you will be clear before you mind has processed enough information to make a decision. And if EVERYBODY is programmed for a 'right turn', without second guessing 'will the other guy push, pull or go left?', then there will be more successful outcomes than if it's left to 'figure it out at the time'.

[Sidebar]

... if EVERYBODY is programmed for a 'right turn', without second guessing 'will the other guy push, pull or go left?', then there will be more successful outcomes than if it's left to 'figure it out at the time'.

Indeed, everybody should know to go right. But who knows whether the other guy is going to pull or push for vertical!

[white_knuckle_flyer]

See http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#602_19 for the current regulation on right of way. It addresses a number of possible scenarios.

This isn't what I am referring to. The general "give way to" is just that....too general. I was referring to some very case specific examples of how to best "give way" to another a/c. For example, a/c approaching at same altitude from your 3 o'clock. Now what ? Does high wing vs low wing affect your decision ?

[iflyforpie]

See http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#602_19 for the current regulation on right of way. It addresses a number of possible scenarios.

This isn't what I am referring to. The general "give way to" is just that....too general. I was referring to some very case specific examples of how to best "give way" to another a/c. For example, a/c approaching at same altitude from your 3 o'clock. Now what ? Does high wing vs low wing affect your decision ?

Aircraft on the right have the right of way. All pilots shall operate their aircraft so as to avoid a collision. Don't remember the regs offhand.

Generally, I will fly the aircraft so I can see and avoid the other one. I fly a couple of high wings with excellent upward visibility, so I wouldn't preclude a descent. In fact, unless it is a conflict with a glider I will usually descend.

With gilders, (90% of my traffic conflicts) I aways pull up because you can be almost certain they won't do the same.

[Gogona]

Indeed, everybody should know to go right. But who knows whether the other guy is going to pull or push for vertical!

But sometimes "the other guy" acts too unpredictably
I was involved in the situation, when the oncoming plane just suddenly appeared so much close to me, so I could even see its radiator. I instantly started my right hand turn, but instead of doing the same (as I was expecting!), he turns left while continuing moving forward!
Thanks God, those day I was flying my gyroplane, not a rental fixed-wing So I was pretty slow. And I was also able to perform a rapid vertical descent, spiraling down like a crazy! Besides of that, this pilot wasn't on the same frequency, so I didn't have a chance to share my thoughts with him/her (although it's also my fault if I haven't spotted him earlier).
However, I still don't want to imagine what could happened to me, if that was normal less maneuverable and 100+ knots cruise speed aircraft...

[jeta1]

One of the worst midairs in Canadian history was in 1995 near Sioux lookout, and the TSB Final Report is a rare one still on the web dating back to 95. See it at http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/a ... 5h0008.asp Very good reading for many who may not have heard of that one.

The report discusses evasion techniques but those two aircraft in 95 had a closing speed of about 410 kts, which according to the report gave them only a 20% chance at best of detecting each other and succesfully evading the collision. One of the aircraft actually spotted the other and made an agressive left turn, which possibly made it worse since it increased the geometry with the other one. Frankly there was not enough time for them to think left right up or down, it happenned too fast.

Bottom line is lookout, make your presence known often (something we [ I ?] all do relatively poorly or infrequently or not enough anyway) and more lookout with an effective scan. If flying with a passenger or passengers, I always ask them in pre-flight briefing to actively participate in the lookout duties, and to advise me immediately if they see an aircraft within close range, not to assume I have, and they always do.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

Bottom line is lookout, make your presence known often (something we [ I ?] all do relatively poorly or infrequently or not enough anyway) and more lookout with an effective scan. If flying with a passenger or passengers, I always ask them in pre-flight briefing to actively participate in the lookout duties, and to advise me immediately if they see an aircraft within close range, not to assume I have, and they always do.

That's all good advice.

We all know that every day while driving in your car, you experience a multitude of situations where you have the "right of way" but still have to take the lion's share of the responsibility for avoiding an accident. Having the right of way is of little consolation when the accident has already happened. I can totally see how an a/c approaching from your 3 o'clock might decide to turn left if it feels that you are not taking any evasive action. It also seems counter-intuitive ( to me ) to turn right if an a/c is at your 3 o'clock, unless of course, the other a/c also turns right.

As far as push vs pull goes, I've heard that most pilots pull. Is that true ? If so, is it due to more high wing a/c or is it to aoid overstressing with neg g's or it's just human nature to climb, or something else ?

Also, why do gliders tend to push ? Simply because they are unpowered and descend much faster than climb ? Vision from the canopy ?

[Colonel Sanders]

As far as push vs pull goes, I've heard that most pilots pull

Could be. In my experience, most pilots turn
which is not always the best choice. You get
two pilots turning, you've just massively
increased your cross-sectional areas and hence
the probability of a collision.

to avoid overstressing with neg g's

Not sure how long you've been flying, but rarely
are pilots that cerebral, even on the ground. I
can assure you that in the air, very little thinking
goes on in these sorts of situations - people
react on instinct, which most of the case is often
at least suboptimal if not outright wrong.

Most pilots think only in 2 dimensions - they think
they are still driving their car. I keep telling people
that aircraft can't hit if they're at different altitudes,
but I'm not sure anyone listens or cares.

A really nice airshow pilot tried to kill me one day.
Freddy joined up right wing, I joined up left wing
and called "in position". Nice vic. I guess Gary
(lead pilot) didn't hear me because he did one of
those "quick" turns that monoplane pilots are so
proud of, with their high roll rates that they talk
about all the time, right into me.

Freddy told me after that he thought I was dead,
but I put what most people would think is a lot of
negative G on, straight and level, and watched
Gary fly overhead.

Somebody tries to kill me in an airplane - stationary
in the windscreen and getting bigger - I'm going
to go wings level towards earth. I'm not going to
fight gravity like a four bars - I'm going to let it
help me. I have no problem with negative G:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meve1szWP54#t=235s

Above is from yesterday. Scratchy in places, but
improving rapidly. Not bad for a 20 yr old wing.

[Gogona]

If flying with a passenger or passengers, I always ask them in pre-flight briefing to actively participate in the lookout duties, and to advise me immediately if they see an aircraft within close range, not to assume I have, and they always do.

+1
I used to do the same. And few times my passengers were better than me

[flyinggirl]

Wow... such sad news. Rudy took me up last summer for my first experience in a glider. What a shame. My condolences.......

[EliasMorrison]

Certainly a tragedy.

I didn't know they had a Stemme. I went to their factory east of Berlin a few years ago. Pretty interesting machine. Maybe it is normal in the glider world, but I thought it was interesting how they have solar panel to charge the battery. Most of the aircraft is composite but there is a metal cage structure around the central fuselage area.

Yes I have been to the factory once and there are plenty of exciting stuff.. With each aircraft there is set of solar panels for charging..

[MikeGolfEcho]

First up-date I've seen:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.2770887

MGE

[RatherBeFlying]

The TSB report actually mentions Flarm for $700. I believe that's the PowerFlarm Pure variation which only detects other PowerFlarms.

Other PowerFlarms pick up ADS-B and transponders. We're talking $1800.

I had a transponder alert and did a gentle left right bank and shortly after was passed from behind by a Cardinal RG. In the accident case, the C150 transponder was not being interrogated; so would not show up on a Flarm.

Flarm targets show up on my flight computer and can be fed to a Garmin TIS.

Lots of towplanes now have Flarms.

The Flarms are great for situational awareness. As the TSB report says, it can be really hard to see a glider 2 miles away. There's times I've been looking for a glider on the Flarm and not seen it at that distance.

[180]

Miss you Rudy. You were a gem. The valley's not the same without you brother. I can still see your smiling face and hear your voice in my head like we hung out yesterday, and as sad as it is that you're gone, thinking of you only brings a smile to my face. Miss you buddy. As probably thousands do...

[wobblepump]

this guy certainly does... RIP good friend

[180]

Wearing my Pemby Soaring shirt and thinking of you today Rudy.

[all_ramped_up]

Miss you Rudy. You were a gem. The valley's not the same without you brother. I can still see your smiling face and hear your voice in my head like we hung out yesterday, and as sad as it is that you're gone, thinking of you only brings a smile to my face. Miss you buddy. As probably thousands do...

Same here.

Can still remember converting to the L-13 from the 2-33A with him in 1999.

"Good Stall... But now I show you real man's stall!" as the stick briskly came to the rear stops and he nearly stood it on its tail.

Great memories with a great Pilot!

[TG]

I'm sure I am not the only one to jump every time I see a crash's topic resurrected out of nowhere.
In this case, 2 years bang on as a reminder/respect for those lost.



When there is no date included in the title, I initially think it just happen.....