PADED log books ?
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
PADED log books ?
This is something the purists can add to do you thing we as professionals should tolerate this practice or turn in these parker pen enthusiasts. It's funny how some people have one hundred twin one year and three fifty the next with business being slow.
WOW!! can you ever open up a can of woms with this thread. In my opinion, if someone should parker pen their log books, what other shortcuts will they take? And can those shortcuts do anything that will endanger me. I don't care about them, It's me I am worried about but that is being selfish. Should you blow the whistle.
1. Make absolutley sure you are 100% correct.
2. Document everthing.
3. Start wearing a skirt because it is easier to hike up so your detractors can kiss your ass.
1. Make absolutley sure you are 100% correct.
2. Document everthing.
3. Start wearing a skirt because it is easier to hike up so your detractors can kiss your ass.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
Oldtimer
I read your rule of thumb entry. You have a good handle on speed etc. You know when you talk to a newbie with his phrasioligy that he does or doesn't have the experience. I hear FL300 and my hair stands on end. Before the keenies tell me about rudueced high level sep. I should mention that I talk to pilots all the time and I know for a fact that some think it's just a matter of a pen. The problem is that it's the guys flying the twin with all four people in that airplane loging it. I think this practice has to stop and the culprits shamed into becoming shoe salesmen.
I read your rule of thumb entry. You have a good handle on speed etc. You know when you talk to a newbie with his phrasioligy that he does or doesn't have the experience. I hear FL300 and my hair stands on end. Before the keenies tell me about rudueced high level sep. I should mention that I talk to pilots all the time and I know for a fact that some think it's just a matter of a pen. The problem is that it's the guys flying the twin with all four people in that airplane loging it. I think this practice has to stop and the culprits shamed into becoming shoe salesmen.
Some pilots i know brag about it - logging PIC regardless of who is in the left seat... Logic Ive heard to support this:
"Im a Captain in this company so I only log PIC"
"No matter who sits in the left I am always captain"
Its shameful but its their business...
"Im a Captain in this company so I only log PIC"
"No matter who sits in the left I am always captain"
Its shameful but its their business...
Keep flying till the noise stops.
I was under the assumption that any employer looking at a new hire would ensure their logbook was certified correct. Is this not the case?
Obviously, if it's your own a/c this wouldn't apply but since most are rented, or owned by an employer there would be other records to match against.
I am I new and naive?
Obviously, if it's your own a/c this wouldn't apply but since most are rented, or owned by an employer there would be other records to match against.
I am I new and naive?
chewsta
I know for a fact that some operators rent their airplane with the understanding that the logbook will be certified with the extra time. I even heard a sales pitch that quoted 250 hours for the price of 175. The only catch was the spread from the flight time to the air time. E.G. Flight time 2.5 air 1.6 get the idea.
I know for a fact that some operators rent their airplane with the understanding that the logbook will be certified with the extra time. I even heard a sales pitch that quoted 250 hours for the price of 175. The only catch was the spread from the flight time to the air time. E.G. Flight time 2.5 air 1.6 get the idea.
Many pilots confuse the living s2348t out of expressions. When I pad my log book, I mean I put in 2.5 flight time for a 1.5 trip and stuff like that or put in time in fictishious airplanes. I do not think that a pilot is "padding" the log book when they put in PIC time when they are sitting in the left seat when both pilots are endorsed and trained on the airplane. Logging passenger time is all wrong. Insurance questions and legal matters can be a serious consequence. One thing that does erk me is the way TC says some have to log time. A co-pilot, endorsed on a type rated airplane can only log half the time - right.
Wrong. He/she can log all the time but only half counts toward a higher licence. It is attention to details like that that seperate the pros. I knew a guy who had an ATPL. minimum time for everything. He was a class 3 flight instructor and the MAJORITY of his time was right seat in a 150 or 172. His buddy sat beside me in a Gulfstream and after 200 hrs on type, we switched seats. Every major winter storm that passed through Alberta, he/we made at least 5 trips through it before it was gone. Saw ILS to mins, Ice, Thunder storms, heavy rain and one tornado. Yet he also had 1500 hrs but 1000 of it was "right seat". only counted for half. Now where in the regs does it say a pilot has to see bad weather to be a pilot. Pilot decision making is the holy grail of the regulators. Who had the better opportunity to make timely decisions. The flight instructor VFR in a single with a few hours charter in a small twin or this young fellow in a complex twin. If the G! guy makes a blunder or poor decision, is he going to be in danger or is the grizzled old Captain going to chew his ass out. (I did, lots of times till he learned. He's now sitting in the right seat of a 747 in Hong Kong. shit). Who had the best experience? I think we are talking apples and oranges here. one is a doer and one is a teacher. Two different things.
Another time, again with a low timer in a Cheyenne.
Ken Fleming, now flys for JAZZ, was a co-pilot for us and we used to switch seats. So, being a good conciencious co-pilot, always went out to set up the cockpit but could never determine what side he should sit on. Bad weather?, in my opinion if he couldn't handle that, he was no use to me so let him get the experience. Same for short strips and on and on, he could never guess what I used as a guideline till one evening we were heading south for Great Falls.It had been a bitching hot day. Ken, sitting in the right seat, commented that the airconditioning in the airplane was barely keeping up and he was hot. I sayed, "Oh it's nice here on the shady side. DING, the bells went off. Guess who gets the shady side. We sure had a good laugh over that. He learned that old age and treacherey will overcome youth and exuberance ever time. Now that is what I call experience and if he wanted to log PIC time when he sat in the left seat. OK by me.
Wrong. He/she can log all the time but only half counts toward a higher licence. It is attention to details like that that seperate the pros. I knew a guy who had an ATPL. minimum time for everything. He was a class 3 flight instructor and the MAJORITY of his time was right seat in a 150 or 172. His buddy sat beside me in a Gulfstream and after 200 hrs on type, we switched seats. Every major winter storm that passed through Alberta, he/we made at least 5 trips through it before it was gone. Saw ILS to mins, Ice, Thunder storms, heavy rain and one tornado. Yet he also had 1500 hrs but 1000 of it was "right seat". only counted for half. Now where in the regs does it say a pilot has to see bad weather to be a pilot. Pilot decision making is the holy grail of the regulators. Who had the better opportunity to make timely decisions. The flight instructor VFR in a single with a few hours charter in a small twin or this young fellow in a complex twin. If the G! guy makes a blunder or poor decision, is he going to be in danger or is the grizzled old Captain going to chew his ass out. (I did, lots of times till he learned. He's now sitting in the right seat of a 747 in Hong Kong. shit). Who had the best experience? I think we are talking apples and oranges here. one is a doer and one is a teacher. Two different things.
Another time, again with a low timer in a Cheyenne.
Ken Fleming, now flys for JAZZ, was a co-pilot for us and we used to switch seats. So, being a good conciencious co-pilot, always went out to set up the cockpit but could never determine what side he should sit on. Bad weather?, in my opinion if he couldn't handle that, he was no use to me so let him get the experience. Same for short strips and on and on, he could never guess what I used as a guideline till one evening we were heading south for Great Falls.It had been a bitching hot day. Ken, sitting in the right seat, commented that the airconditioning in the airplane was barely keeping up and he was hot. I sayed, "Oh it's nice here on the shady side. DING, the bells went off. Guess who gets the shady side. We sure had a good laugh over that. He learned that old age and treacherey will overcome youth and exuberance ever time. Now that is what I call experience and if he wanted to log PIC time when he sat in the left seat. OK by me.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
What about Co-Captain. Do you think two high timers flying a BE350 are going to put co pilot time in their log book. Split S if what you are saying is true what about line in doc, do you think the training captain should log PIC....or even better what about flight instructors?????
We had a girl show up at the gliding club asking if we would put 600 hours in the C-180 journey log for her. I am sure that people this stupid get caught.
When i had my C-150 i tried very hard to keep the numbers as precise as possible. Always rounded to the closest .1, didn't start the watch until i had started taxiing. When towing i even stop the clock if i am going to sit more than a minute on the ground with the engine running between tows. Simply because i wanted my books to be right for me. However now i wish that i had added in a couple hundred hours on the 150 because it would have cut four hundred hours off the F/O time for the ATPL.
The ninth commandment does not apply to TC. An extra couple hundred hours of 150 time would have got me my ATPL almost a year sooner, but would not have made me a better pilot.
A respected friend who flies for Air Canada got his first job while standing on the dock when the owner of the 180 asked "Do you have 250 hours on floats?" to which the 10 hour float time pilot said "Yes". He got away with it clean and never came close to damaging the aircraft. Frankly i have no problems with someone who lies about hours because there is way too much emphasis on hours and often no skill requirement. I am not about to lie to get a job but that is for personal reasons, if someone else is comfortable doing it and an employer hires them rather than me because they have an extra five hundred hours, then too bad for the employer. Hours per say should not mean nearly as much as they do.
And as for certifying logs, TC has finally woken up to the fact that certified means little and no longer require it. However when you submit your logs for a licence they may call you and get you to provide verification for certain items.
When i had my C-150 i tried very hard to keep the numbers as precise as possible. Always rounded to the closest .1, didn't start the watch until i had started taxiing. When towing i even stop the clock if i am going to sit more than a minute on the ground with the engine running between tows. Simply because i wanted my books to be right for me. However now i wish that i had added in a couple hundred hours on the 150 because it would have cut four hundred hours off the F/O time for the ATPL.
The ninth commandment does not apply to TC. An extra couple hundred hours of 150 time would have got me my ATPL almost a year sooner, but would not have made me a better pilot.A respected friend who flies for Air Canada got his first job while standing on the dock when the owner of the 180 asked "Do you have 250 hours on floats?" to which the 10 hour float time pilot said "Yes". He got away with it clean and never came close to damaging the aircraft. Frankly i have no problems with someone who lies about hours because there is way too much emphasis on hours and often no skill requirement. I am not about to lie to get a job but that is for personal reasons, if someone else is comfortable doing it and an employer hires them rather than me because they have an extra five hundred hours, then too bad for the employer. Hours per say should not mean nearly as much as they do.
And as for certifying logs, TC has finally woken up to the fact that certified means little and no longer require it. However when you submit your logs for a licence they may call you and get you to provide verification for certain items.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Logged hours are just that, a record of the time a pilot has flown.
If you are caught falsifing the times you are guilty of falsifying the times..period.
If you have an accident and the insurance company asks for proof of time and you cannot show proof of the hours flown the insurance company can come after you, or deny payment for the claim.
Hours flown is a very poor yardstick of pilot expertise, an idiot with 500 hours is a 500 hour idiot when he reaches 5000 hours he will be a 5000 hour idiot.
The seat you sit in does not determine who is pilot in command.
Cat.........................a somewhere around 30,000 hour idiot and getting dummer by the post.
If you are caught falsifing the times you are guilty of falsifying the times..period.
If you have an accident and the insurance company asks for proof of time and you cannot show proof of the hours flown the insurance company can come after you, or deny payment for the claim.
Hours flown is a very poor yardstick of pilot expertise, an idiot with 500 hours is a 500 hour idiot when he reaches 5000 hours he will be a 5000 hour idiot.
The seat you sit in does not determine who is pilot in command.
Cat.........................a somewhere around 30,000 hour idiot and getting dummer by the post.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat - as usual you said sumpin that makes sense. I spent a lot of time with junior birdmen trying to explain who is the Pilot in Command. Even high time corperate jocks have a problem with this. Splits made a comment that is so true. Just because you are sitting in the left seat doesn't mean you are the PIC. Hyster asked about co-captains and that can really be a stickey wicket unless a firm policy is in place. What about 2 pilots, both have been to FS or whatever and both have lots of time and both are paid as a Captain and they are flying together and one decides to go below minimums. Who has the authority to say no. The major airlines have the problem solved. The captain wears 4 stripes, sits in the left seat and is PIC. The first officer wears 3 stripes and sits in the right seat. Many used to be career co-pilots because the pay was or could be the same. When I am doing a checkride in the Beech or Metro, I always make sure everyone knows without a doubt who is PIC. If the pilots are not type rated, then I am PIC, ever though I don't have a window seat. In the previous company, the CP, ex military, was very specific, he decided who was PIC and would remain PIC until either the airplane was taken over by maitenance or another crew was assigned. Solved all kind of problems. Cheeze I get long winded. Somebody should tell me to shut up but there is a bunch of newbe's that may be able to learn something. Like Cat said, hours are not everything. I knew a private pilot who was happy because he had 1500 hrs. In actuality, he had 1 hour repeated 1500 times. But he knew his limitations and that was that.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
It is very important that everyone understands the chain of command in the aircraft.
I once turned down a checkride because i was not satisfied with the instructor being the PIC. I asked myself "would you fly as a passenger with this person?" and when the answer came out no, i decided that it would not be a good idea to do a ride with them. What if there is an emergency? What if the engine quits at 300 feet and they try to turn around? Do you whack them over the head with the fire extinguisher, save the day and face TC and the cops later or do you let them write you off for the sake of propriety?
One rule i have developed is that when two pilots are in a tandem aircraft with no intercom i make sure the other pilot knows that i will not be touching the controls no matter what happens (when they are the one who is flying that is). It is far too easy to think the other guy has taken control because the stick moved. In addition to knowing who is PIC, it is important to know who is flying. "I have control" and "You have control" is important in all flying.
If it's his leg and he's asleep, do i wake him up or take control? Or if both, in what order?
I once turned down a checkride because i was not satisfied with the instructor being the PIC. I asked myself "would you fly as a passenger with this person?" and when the answer came out no, i decided that it would not be a good idea to do a ride with them. What if there is an emergency? What if the engine quits at 300 feet and they try to turn around? Do you whack them over the head with the fire extinguisher, save the day and face TC and the cops later or do you let them write you off for the sake of propriety?
One rule i have developed is that when two pilots are in a tandem aircraft with no intercom i make sure the other pilot knows that i will not be touching the controls no matter what happens (when they are the one who is flying that is). It is far too easy to think the other guy has taken control because the stick moved. In addition to knowing who is PIC, it is important to know who is flying. "I have control" and "You have control" is important in all flying.
If it's his leg and he's asleep, do i wake him up or take control? Or if both, in what order?
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Yes Oldtimer, the PIC must be designated before each flight.
When I flew for Mobil Oil they did not hire Captains as such, they hired pilots who were Captain qualified and the pilot in command was rotated each flight.
They had an excellent CRM system millions of centuries before that "neat" sounding phrase was thought up by some paper pusher wanking in some dark office.
If pilots back up several steps and get out from under their own shadow of greatness and look at flying in the simple contetx of what is needed it will be easier to understand.
Flying an airplane is driving a mobile device that operates in three dimensions and requires understanding of the physics and mechanics involved in driving it......everything else is using common sense and visualizing your path far ahead of where you are at any moment and learning more and more as time passes.
Sometimes you may even get paid well for doing it.
Where is Snoopy? haven't seen her post in a dogs age.
Cat.
When I flew for Mobil Oil they did not hire Captains as such, they hired pilots who were Captain qualified and the pilot in command was rotated each flight.
They had an excellent CRM system millions of centuries before that "neat" sounding phrase was thought up by some paper pusher wanking in some dark office.
If pilots back up several steps and get out from under their own shadow of greatness and look at flying in the simple contetx of what is needed it will be easier to understand.
Flying an airplane is driving a mobile device that operates in three dimensions and requires understanding of the physics and mechanics involved in driving it......everything else is using common sense and visualizing your path far ahead of where you are at any moment and learning more and more as time passes.
Sometimes you may even get paid well for doing it.
Where is Snoopy? haven't seen her post in a dogs age.
Cat.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
CAT like you said, a PIC has to be decided. I know most corerate operators run "co-captains" and such which will work as long as a set policy is in place. In our case, there were problems years ago and the CP took the bull by the horns and solved the problem Break everything down to it's simplest form and deal with it.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
ndb :
A real airplane has "two" engines, one seat and is stressed for 9G's positive and 6G's negative with unlimited inverted flight.
It's the French Cri Cri.
Cat
A real airplane has "two" engines, one seat and is stressed for 9G's positive and 6G's negative with unlimited inverted flight.
It's the French Cri Cri.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Oh! The good old days when men were men, women were double breasted and real airplanes had round engines.
Or was it the good old days when men were men and sheep walked around with a worried look.
I can't remember.
Or was it the good old days when men were men and sheep walked around with a worried look.
I can't remember.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
-
jackrabbit
- Rank 3
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:27 am
Insurance changes have created an environment where this type of behaviour will not be at all uncommon. Combine that with the fact people already treat flying like a drug, where they are willing to work for free or spend years working ramps or docks in some of the worlds worst shit holes, just to have the chance at a flying job.
People have already proven they will do whatever it takes to get a flying job. Even if that now means writing in an extra hundred hours of multi time here, or a hundred of float time there.
I can tell you right now that I know more than a handful of people who fly for the airlines that BS'd there time.
I can also tell you that most training captains would have a very difficult time noticing. For example if a pilot has 3500hrs (much of it on turbine machines) but needs 4000 in order to obtain a new position. I don't think anybody would be the wiser should they BS 500 hours of Light twin time that they say they did 5 years previous.
How many of you actually check a guy’s personal logbook numbers against the aircraft books before you stamp it. (I never have)
It scares the crap out of me that one day somebody's going to pile one in and I’m going to take shit for it because I had better things to do then sit down with a pile of flight sheets and logbooks.
I hope that those who do BS are even more afraid than I am because I would bet that it would take the average pilot a lot of years to pay off a bent airplane because the insurance man found out your full of shit (especially since you'll be flipping burgers to pay for it)
Don't even get me started on the consequences should you end up killing somebody and you end up living through it!!
People have already proven they will do whatever it takes to get a flying job. Even if that now means writing in an extra hundred hours of multi time here, or a hundred of float time there.
I can tell you right now that I know more than a handful of people who fly for the airlines that BS'd there time.
I can also tell you that most training captains would have a very difficult time noticing. For example if a pilot has 3500hrs (much of it on turbine machines) but needs 4000 in order to obtain a new position. I don't think anybody would be the wiser should they BS 500 hours of Light twin time that they say they did 5 years previous.
How many of you actually check a guy’s personal logbook numbers against the aircraft books before you stamp it. (I never have)
It scares the crap out of me that one day somebody's going to pile one in and I’m going to take shit for it because I had better things to do then sit down with a pile of flight sheets and logbooks.
I hope that those who do BS are even more afraid than I am because I would bet that it would take the average pilot a lot of years to pay off a bent airplane because the insurance man found out your full of shit (especially since you'll be flipping burgers to pay for it)
Don't even get me started on the consequences should you end up killing somebody and you end up living through it!!
As a training pilot, checkpilot and a former CP, I can say that during a checkride, I can spot those that can and those that can't. If their log books say the minimum to satisfy the feds, I then look at performance, period. Either he/she can /can't or needs more training. Pretty simple. I can say with absolute conviction that a good pilot with 500 hours can do as good as or better than a poor 5000 hr pilot. Given the proper training. Some simple questions can weed out the falsefiers becaus they always fall back on the easiest. Havn't got time to learn the small stuff. The very fact that they do not have the integrity to do things properly will always come to the forefront. What scares me is not the fact that they have padded, but what other shortcomings are they hiding. Like are they professionals or are they pretenders. Let the pretenders go to work for Keystone.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
