Renegotiating with Air Canada

[Radiocaster]

I think the only thing ovious now, is that there will be an expansion of 76 seat jet inside the Express brand. The big question now is do you go with CRJ 705 or Embraer 175. The rapidity at wich you want the aircrafts on the line will be important. Because I beleive the backlog at Bombardier is a lot less than the one at Embraer. But 10 years seem like they have time to evaluate stuff.

[razorblade]

I think we need to get our heads out of our asses and stop dreaming about this flow-through crap. It's not gonna happen, and with another 10 years with a guaranteed max of 76 seats only, there's no new EMJs/ 319s/ 737s at Jazz. Something's gonna happen, and it's not going to be good for us (Jazz).

[Fanblade]

I think we need to get our heads out of our asses and stop dreaming about this flow-through crap. It's not gonna happen, and with another 10 years with a guaranteed max of 76 seats only, there's no new EMJs/ 319s/ 737s at Jazz. Something's gonna happen, and it's not going to be good for us (Jazz).

Not necessarily. I do however think that flow a through with add ons would be tough to achieve.

[Krimson]

Where did this flow through talk start from? Is it a dream of a few pilots sparking rumours? I've heard a few pilots talking about it now...from an outsider, doesn't seem like something that would ever be on the table.

[razorblade]

Where did this flow through talk start from? Is it a dream of a few pilots sparking rumours.

Exactly. Someone thought it would be good for them, and they built it up and spread the rumour.

[Calin Robandfistyou]

The previous 2 MEC negotiating surveys had numerous questions about flow through, I believe this is where the rumor started.

[teacher]

DH8-100s are gonna get parked.
More DH8-400s. Perhaps the bigger DH8-400 if it is ever built with a business class section like the 705 to keep it below the new scope limit.
More 705s

I think you're dreaming if you think any substantial seniority will be brought with you to AC In any kind of flow through agreement. Once again it would make for great labour stability but would never be agreed upon. Unless you carried a number that was above a new hire but below a current AC pilot from say the date that the flow through agreement is signed.

I'm sure there is another shoe to drop somewhere OR maybe AC management has finally figured out the way to create labour stability which may lead to higher profits in the long run. We'll see.

[Splash]

DH8-100s are gonna get parked.
More DH8-400s. Perhaps the bigger DH8-400 if it is ever built with a business class section like the 705 to keep it below the We'll see.

I had that sense that the DH8-100s were on their way out for a few years for various reasons,namely lack low capacity,age,cycles and CASM. Within 12 months I think we'll know the answer. I do foresee a trade-off with the DH8-400,problem is I don't see it as a 1-1. With Georgian's recent CRJ flying,one can reasonably conclude AC will be looking to them and Sky Regional to pick up additional future 76 seat jet and DH8-400 flying.

[Black Cat]

The flow-through rumor Came from comments made by Jolene Mahoney, Chorus COO if I am remembering correctly. It was more than a few months ago that I read it.

If you go on the company site and you search under "Jolenes blog" you can scroll through and find her direct quotes. The long and short of is as follows ; flow-through could be a tool used by jazz to reduce costs to Air Canada, for the obvious reasons.

[EatSleepFly]

There is NO flow through flow through agreement.

AC can hire who they want. Jazz pilots are no more special than anyone else.

One thing is a fact. You are regional pilots and this new TA enforces that.

You are also living in a fictitious world if you think you will be getting anything but cuts in your next negots.... Guess who you can thank for that?

WJ encore...

If you want to work at AC don't make the mistakes of the senior Jazz pilots jealous that a yr5 FO at AC makes more money than he does.

Just apply!

Goodluck.

Remember there is no way a flow through will happen. Sorry

[Bajan Pilot]

Is it too late to nominate EatSleepFly for the Nobel Peace prize? Cheery sort, isn't he.

[razorblade]

Just because it was a douche post doesn't mean he isn't right. I don't see a flowthrough happening.
It's unreasonable to expect that they would say yes to Jazz guys overtaking some of them in the seniority list. It's also unreasonable to believe that they give a shit about who is below them on the list, and where they came from- it's all about as long as they are able to hold something better (or the same), who cares about the dude below.

[Nerdturndbird]

Don't hold back on us eatsleepfly. Tell us how you really feel. I think eatsleepgetlaidfly could really null you anger and this persistent need to judge others. Remember don't judge lest ye be judged. There is equally nothing special about Air Canada pilots.

[Calin Robandfistyou]

Up until about 5 years ago Jazz DID have a arrangement with Air Canada for preferential hiring. I can't remember the details but was something like:

-guaranteed interview with mainline after 2 years service at Jazz
-seniority number ahead of non-jazz pilots in their PIT course
-bring over up to 4 years pay

So I wouldn't dismiss a flow through/preferential hiring just yet. Plus NO Jazz pilot would be senior to ANY air Canada pilot, I repeat, NO Jazz pilot would be senior to ANY air Canada pilot.

Perhaps ENCORE is to blame for the predicament we are in here at Jazz, however they DO have a flow through (career progression/ earning potential) and if Air Canada ever wants to see a similar cost structure at Jazz, we'll, perhaps we will be thanking ENCORE for setting the flow through standard.

[Krimson]

But WJE and WJ are essentially the same company. The pilots are hired by the same HR department.

Jazz and Air Canada are two very different and unique companies.


It sounds like Jazz pilots are hoping for it both ways. When the contract ends, we will set up our own airline within a day to compete with Air Canada. But we will also have flow through to our new number 1 competition.

[EatSleepFly]

I'm blunt and honest.

Don't want you to get your hopes up.

Flow through is needed to attract pilots. It's not needed for Jazz as your the highest paid in the world.

Air Canada pilots are to scared to allow anything tied to Jazz pilots as your senior ones tried many times to screw them.

Air Canada guys don't think they are better. Just like Jazz shouldn't think they are better to any other.

[TheStig]

Negotiations are about leverage, obviously with Sky Regional and now Georgian both in place, Jazz's position as a single supplier greatly reduces its position. However, Jazz has a few things going for it; such as its established relationship, strong performance and safety record, but more than anything else the fact that it has an expensive CPA in place until 2020. What I find interesting about these renegotiations, is that due to this, the longer Jazz waits, the less leverage it has, but the earlier a deal can be reached the more leverage it has because Air Canada wants out of the current CPA ASAP.

I don't know the demographics at Jazz, I imagine the pilots who have been there since Air BC, Nova, Air Ontario started would be getting pretty close to retirement by 2020 and might not want to renegotiate at all yet alone care about flow through to AC, whereas someone who has only been there a couple of years has entirely different priorities.

So I wouldn't dismiss a flow through/preferential hiring just yet. Plus NO Jazz pilot would be senior to ANY air Canada pilot, I repeat, NO Jazz pilot would be senior to ANY air Canada pilot.

If flow through to mainline is important to you, make sure let your negotiators and MEC know it, however, you should know that it will be used as a tool against the pilot group to wrangle concessions, maybe thats fine with you? I'm sure the guys at the top of the list have a different set of priorities. I don't think Air Canada would have a problem ensuring, for example, 25% of all new hires come from Jazz, but nothing comes free, and I'd be very surprised if they took everyone straight on board by DOH to anywhere other than the BOTL under the new pension plan at year 1 on the pay scale, so at what point does it not even become a flow through?

[DH772]

Up until about 5 years ago Jazz DID have a arrangement with Air Canada for preferential hiring. I can't remember the details but was something like:

Your dates are very off. It was much longer than 5 years ago. And this agreement ended quickly once AC started hiring again and no longer "owned" Jazz. Your facts of what you brought over aren't entirely accurate.

Let me ask you for your opinion. What makes you think that Jazz deserves a guaranteed free ticket over to AC with no interview,reference,background check, medical while everyone else needs to be cross-examined? (I'm not saying you don't)
Then on top of that, please explain after this said free ticket, Jazz flow through also deserve higher pass travel date, higher pay than the junior guys on property at AC that had to take the process on their own?

How would you feel if a 3rd year Jazz FO, had a GGN FO enter under a lower seniority but at a higher pay rate and higher pass travel for the rest of their career? Would you be fine with such an arrangement?

Jazz is no different than GGN or SKY in today's market. Meaning you are no longer owned by AC therefore comparing it to WJE is non sense. As someone said, there is always the possibility of negotiating some kind of terms of "flow" but that would come at a cost to Jazz.

These are just my 2 pennies. I don't have an issue with flow, but I do have an issue with guys thinking they for some reason have "earned" the right to bring stuff over that would effect guys already on property at AC.

[navajo_jay]

If Air Canada trust Jazz to fly Air Canada`s passengers on their plane, why not trust Jazz pilots? Why not just make flow through with all the AC feeders. It would make sense no? If Jazz pilots are that bad, then Air Canada should not put their passengers on Jazz flights.

[DH772]

Agreed. That wasn't my point though. My point though was why do some believe a flow through program should offer incentives that put them at an advantage over current mainline pilots?

I think everyone could benefit from a flow through program. It just needs to be setup properly to please the "majority" of pilots.
AC pilot doesn't want to be below a flow through candidate (pay,seniority, travel). Just like a Jazz pilot would not want an unfair flow that would give preference or seniority to GGN or SKY over Jazz.
That was only point I was trying to make.

[navajo_jay]

Well, I think it would be only fair to have a certain incentive for the flow through to work. A guy that has been at Jazz let say for 6-7 years, he would get a big drop in pay and loose passes. So he decides to stay. Then the guy at Jazz for 6 months, still on first year pay has nothing to loose and leaves. So you want to get rid of top scale guys at the regional to be cheaper but, the only guys that are leaving are guys with 1 year or less. You need incentives for the system to work.

Anyways looks like your contract doesn't talk about any flow, so why bother debating about this.

[TheStig]

If Air Canada trust Jazz to fly Air Canada`s passengers on their plane, why not trust Jazz pilots? Why not just make flow through with all the AC feeders. It would make sense no? If Jazz pilots are that bad, then Air Canada should not put their passengers on Jazz flights.

Every company has employees which, if given the opportunity to hire twice, wouldn't do so. It's not about passenger safety, it's about trying to avoid problem makers.

[rudder]

There is NO flow through flow through agreement.

AC can hire who they want. Jazz pilots are no more special than anyone else.

One thing is a fact. You are regional pilots and this new TA enforces that.

You are also living in a fictitious world if you think you will be getting anything but cuts in your next negots.... Guess who you can thank for that?

WJ encore...

If you want to work at AC don't make the mistakes of the senior Jazz pilots jealous that a yr5 FO at AC makes more money than he does.

Just apply!

Goodluck.

Remember there is no way a flow through will happen. Sorry

Congrats. Most ignorant post of the month. Perhaps the most ignorant post of the year. I sincerely hope that you are not an AC pilot.

AC and Jazz pilots get along fine. They carry each other in their respective jump seats, say hello when passing in the terminal buildings, and seem to have put any acrimony from the past aside, except for a bitter few.

As for what a senior Jazz pilot makes - try $150K+. That involves working a lot harder perhaps than his/her AC counterpart but that is the model that Jazz has built - efficiency. If you want to add income the incentive and the opportunity is there. It would appear that Rouge has also discovered this particular formula and my understanding is that many prefer it to the mainline system.

As for flowthrough, the parties have been there and done that. It did not last. If at any point AC come to the conclusion that securing a reliable stream of qualified pilot labour would be an asset then perhaps we will all hear more about the subject. But for now, it would appear to be a non-issue.

As for the derogatory comment about regional pilots, it isn't even worth dignifying with a response.

[hithere]

Rudder,
A Jazz Captain would have to work a ridiculous amount of overtime to make $150k a year. The top scale pay rate right now is $120/hr which based on an average of 82.5 hours a month equals about $120k a year

[EatSleepFly]

Please rudder tell me what false words I spoke of?

Nothing ignorant. What's ignorant is you giving details of AC's TA on unsecure forum.