Spaceship Two accident

[Meatservo]

I just read on that "face book" thing that the experimental sub-orbital vehicle "Spaceship Two" just suffered an "anomaly".

Here is the link to the article I read.

http://www.businessinsider.com/virgin-g ... ht-2014-10

What a bummer. I don't know much about the program but it's exciting and this is really bad news. We need daring entrepreneurs and hero pilots to keep the manned space flight dream alive... so much more compelling to me as a pilot than drones and robots. I know it was being marketed as a plaything for the very rich but who knows if this is what paves the way to more exciting stuff ahead?

At least the carrier plane made it back, but this is very bad news. Very depressing.

[ogc]

This is tragic. I really hope it doesnt mean the end of the programme as it had so much promise.

[vanNostrum]

Heard some comments on CNN about the rocket engine running for about one second stopping and starting again before exploding.Also since this engine did not have the thrust to take them sixty miles up it was implied that the life of the pilots was put in harms way for no good reasson We have to wait for the investigation.
Sad news

vN

[Changes in Latitudes]

Tragic news. All I can hope for is that the lessons learned from this disaster will make future space flights safer. I truly admire the very few that operate on the edge of our limits like this.

[grimey]

Heard some comments on CNN about the rocket engine running for about one second stopping and starting again before exploding.Also since this engine did not have the thrust to take them sixty miles up it was implied that the life of the pilots was put in harms way for no good reasson We have to wait for the investigation.
Sad news

vN

It was the 4th powered test flight. I'd guess that there's a hell of a lot of testing they can do without going all the way up.

Oh, and wonderful reporting from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/31/us/spaces ... ?hpt=hp_t1

SpaceShipTwo would reach supersonic speeds on its way to its intended altitude of about 62 miles above the Earth. At that point, people onboard would get about five minutes of weightlessness before the bonds of earth retract with 6 G's of force.

[vanNostrum]

The comment came from Joel Glenn Brenner a reporter closely associated with the Virgin program
Today's flight test was the first with a new type of fuel , whether this was a factor in the accident remains to be seen.
Regardless, this a major setback but I don't think the end of the program

[pelmet]

New fuel for this flight.

[grimey]

pictures of the breakup shortly after engine start:

https://twitter.com/Ry4nBurke/status/52 ... 77/photo/1

[Beach 200]

I seem to remember hearing that they don't wear pressure suits. Anyone hear anything different?

[ogc]

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/b ... 2014-11-02

If that article has some truth in it this might be the end.

I had no idea that they had an explosion during a test firing that killed three people.

[ehbuddy]

If this is such a great idea maybe old Richard should go up on the next 5 or 6 test flights..................

[North Shore]

You'd think that they would have stuck with the tried-and-true kerosene/LOx motors that have been used since Von Braun? Or is the new engine cheaper? More eco-friendly? Lighter?

Anyone on here have any expertise to speak to the article?
BMC, you have a pretty deep network...

[grimey]

Sounds like it may have had nothing at all to do with the engine.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/02/us/spaces ... ?hpt=hp_t1

The feathering of the wings became unlocked 9 seconds after engine start, shortly after it went supersonic.

[AirFrame]

The feathering of the wings became unlocked 9 seconds after engine start, shortly after it went supersonic.

Interesting... I wonder if the aerodynamic forces would be enough to start the feathering movement even if it wasn't commanded from the cockpit.

[grimey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYVhGvUSNc

[Crusty]

You'd think that they would have stuck with the tried-and-true kerosene/LOx motors that have been used since Von Braun? Or is the new engine cheaper? More eco-friendly? Lighter?

Disclaimer: I have exactly zero expertise in this

I was however a huge fan of the SpaceshipOne project and read everything I could get my hands on about it.

Back then, the claim was that their motor was a new revolutionary hybrid between liquid and solid fuel. It combined the (relative) simplicity of a solid fuel rocket with the throttle-able and turn-off-able qualities of a liquid fuelled one. By simplicity I mean they didn't have turbo-pumps and a ton of plumbing. Also, the fuels in the hybrid engine were a lot less toxic to ground crews.

My understanding was that it used a solid chunk of fuel which had gaseous oxidizer sprayed onto it.

Von Braun once said that you should never put a man on top of a solid fuel rocket. I think he was primarily concerned about not being able to throttle them and not being able to shut them off.

I believe on the shuttle the contingency plan on a pre-orbit abort involved blowing explosive bolts to detach the solids and then they could command a destruction of the solids by igniting the top end of them. The liquid powered main engines on the other hand could be shut down.

[Bede]

How did the other guy even survive? Seems somewhat miraculous.

[GyvAir]

There's talk of one parachute being spotted. Did the aircraft have ejection provisions?

[AirFrame]

You'd think that they would have stuck with the tried-and-true kerosene/LOx motors that have been used since Von Braun? Or is the new engine cheaper? More eco-friendly? Lighter?

An article on this crash from the other day suggested that Burt Rutan was the main opponent to a fully liquid-fuelled rocket, as the increased complexity and plumbing requirements were significant.

The same article said that the Spaceship Two engine used recycled rubber pellets as the solid, and nitrous oxide as the liquid, to create the propellant. This combination is apparently very controllable as shutting off the nitrous shuts off the reaction. I won't claim to understand the chemistry involved in turning nitrous + rubber into a rocket plume.

[grimey]

There's talk of one parachute being spotted. Did the aircraft have ejection provisions?

Apparently there's an escape hatch, but no ejection seats. Maybe he was ejected during the breakup? Shockingly, he wouldn't be the first test pilot to survive an in-flight breakup in that way. There's another NTSB briefing scheduled for 11est/8pst tonight, hopefully we'll get some more info.

As for the engines, they found the engine and the propellant tanks, with no evidence of a failure there.

[cgzro]

If I remember correctly the engine had a coil of wire wrapped around it, if the wire got broken, as would happen if the exhaust breached, the supply of nitrous was turned off. Not sure if they still used this but it seemed like a clever solution when they described it for the rocket racers.

Anyway a very unfortunate incident but lets face it aviation and space travel only exists because a hell of a lot of pilots died testing.

[ogc]

I also read today that most of the engine components have been found intact. The previous explosion on the ground was caused by a rupture of the nitrous tank which was found already.

It sounds more and more like it was an in flight break up.

[TeePeeCreeper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYVhGvUSNc

Thanks for posting that Grimey!

I wish everyone whom posted after you had taken the time to watch the first 5 minutes of that video...

[boeingboy]

So - I don't get it, and I doubt anyone here would know - but it's worth a shot......

NTSB says the tail "feathers" are used to add drag and slow the spacecraft during re-entry. Test procedures had the crew unlock the feathers and the deploy them above Mach 1.5. The apparently deployed at Mach 1.0. Why would they deploy them if they were not on their way back down? and they were at a lower speed.

I first thought oh - they moved at Mach 1.0 and the machine broke up.........but they are supposed to deploy them at a higher speed and during re-entry. I also wonder why they would not unlock them closer to when they are coming back down rather than in the accent stage....

[grimey]

http://www.turnto23.com/news/local-news ... ash-110314

cliffs notes from video:

timeline:
10:07:19 release from WK2
10:07:21 engine start
10:07:29 0.94 Mach
feather goes from lock->unlock between :29 and :31
10:07:31 1.02 Mach
Soon after :31, tail begins to feather.
10:07:34 telemetry lost

substantial telemetry and recording eq. on board due to it being a test flight, that data is being converted into a useful form for the investigation.

Some parts found as far as 34 miles from main crash site, unknown if it fell there or was blown there after coming down.

Main investigation is now moving to Washington, investigation expected to last up to 12 months. Investigation will also look at factors like checklist design, instrument/display design, etc.

Surviving pilot has not yet been interviewed.

Flight card stated not to unlock feather until after Mach 1.4, was unlocked between 0.94 and 1.02.

Systems will be checked to verify whether co-pilot had accurate data on his screens.

Crew member in right seat moved lever from lock->unlock. NTSB did not know if that was pilot/co-pilot, previous ID as it being the co-pilot was in error, NTSB doesn't know who it was. movement of lock lever was observed by cockpit video.