Training at an uncontrolled vs controlled airport

[darkskyequeen]

I tried to search around to see if this topic came up but couldn't find anything recent. I have two flight schools as options for training.

Option 1: Busy uncontrolled airpark surrounded by controlled airspace (spectrumairways.com) which is conveniently located on my way to and from work
Option 2: Controlled airport with daily westjet flights (flygha.com) which is a little more out of the way from my work route but slightly closer to home.

I plan on going for discovery flights with each flight school but in the mean time I would love to hear your personal thoughts on doing training out of a controlled vs uncontrolled airport. As for the radio work aspect, I here there are lots of software and online resources out there that could help those needing confidence with working with ATC etc (VATSIM and LIVEATC come to mind) for pilots that are use to only working in an uncontrolled airport. Any thoughts on that?

[RamAirTurbine]

I think going on a discovery flight with both schools is going to be your best bet. Doing your flight training in southern Ontario at either of the schools you mentioned will give you exposure to both controlled and uncontrolled airports. Consider factors like plane availability, quality of instructors and an overall feel for the school before making a decision based on if the airport is controlled or uncontrolled. I haven't trained/rented from either of the schools you mentioned but I know an Instructor from Golden Horseshoe, and it seems like a great place to train! You can PM me if you want names or any more information!

Hope this helped!
RAT

[zulutime]

I started my flying at a controlled airport in St, Hubert, QC (many years ago mind you). I now fly out of Burlington Airpark. I enjoy the uncontrolled atmosphere of CZBA. If I want to get some time in a controlled environment there are a few easy to reach airports close to Burlington. Another consideration is time to the practice area. From wheels up in Burlington you're about 10 minutes to the prctice area. Compare this to any other airport you're considering. Lastly, look at the fleet and the instructors. Spectrum have a few fairly nice planes (C172's). I've never flown their C150's so I have no comment. I do believe they are "bare bones" and suitable for PPL flight training. I personally like the CFI Dennis Simo at Spectrum. EXTREMELY knowledgeable. I'm a believer that quality instruction starts from the top down and I would match Dennis up against anyone in the industry. He has built a strong team of instructors. At the end of the day of course you, as a student, have to be comfortable with your choices otherwise learning will be hampered.

Best of luck. I'm sure you will receive other opinions and that's a good thing. Listen to what others have to say but ultimately the decision is yours. Do your homework and make a list of the pros and cons.

Welcome to the world of aviation.

[CpnCrunch]

IMO you're best learning at an uncontrolled airport, as you'll end up spending a lot less time taxiing for $200/hr. You can easily fly over to the controlled airport occasionally to get the experience.

[Duffman]

Hamilton is controlled but it's absolutely dead these days. You will pretty much never have to wait for other aircraft there.

[ahramin]

I wouldn't pick a flight school based on the airport facilities. Pick it based on the flight school.

In the end you're going to have to be familiar with both airports anyway, doesn't make much difference which you start with.

[eddyb123]

I trained out of London not that busy but taxing and waiting for other traffic adds up. A small field would save some of that time. Radio work is everywhere, even at small fields you broadcast. Your instructor will make sure you get to a few different fields. I bet you'll go to CYXU you call them before you get into their air space, tell them who you are where you are and what you want to do = touch and go or what ever you want to do. All the info is in From the Ground Up. I tell's you how to communicate when to communicate and what to com.

[I_Drive_Planes]

Definitely check out the flying schools and choose the one that you like best. Airports are airports, the one you train at is irrelevant. Quality flying training will expose you to all types of airports. The quality of instruction, personality of your instructor, and how easy the school is to deal with are the important things when choosing a flying school.

[darkskyequeen]

THanks for the solid feedback everyone. I'll keep you all posted on what I end up doing. After I get over this bad cold I'll be booking some discovery flights. BTW I keep hearing about Dennis Simo. A friend of mine had him as an instructor and he also vouches for him. Also I've seen some videos on youtube with him instructing in the tail dragger. Lets hope that IF I go with spectrum I will have a good shot at getting connected with him.

[trey kule]

how does one knew to aviation judge the quality of flight instructors at a school?

I have seen more than a few super salesmen instructors who would then milk the poor student for everything they could...read the Red bird sim thread,.... First 25 hours in a sim!

It is extremely difficult for someone new to aviation to assess a flight school.

Time on the ground and time to the training area are considerations, but a good instructor can mitigate those to some extent, as others have said, pick a school unless those times are significant. A school can also plan longer training flights to reduce the percentage of time on the ground and transiting.

When you go to a school. Ask to see the instructors syllabus. Surprising how many dont have one other than something copied directly from somewhere. Take a look at the syllabus. When you decide, ask for a copy and refer to it during your training, pay particular attention to any good ideas for extras that instructors offer to enhance the training experience.

Btw. I hear there is an app out that accurately records flight time...some schools use hobbs time. In my opinion, a ripoff. Hobbs time is not flight time

[Shiny Side Up]

Personally my vote would be to learn at an uncontrolled airport, at one with a grass runway preferably, or at least a place that's willing to fly off of grass. All else being equal, its just tough to justify spending money taxiing long distances and waiting behind other airplanes.

I hear there is an app out that accurately records flight time...some schools use hobbs time. In my opinion, a ripoff. Hobbs time is not flight time

How so? As of yet I've seen no scuh app, most are just fancy timing apps that still depend on the user to start and stop, I could be wrong, but such things still depend on the good faith of the student/renter. That said, most people can't be counted upon to reliably record time that they're flying, so unless the general population changes this tendency, we'll be stuck with hobbs meters.

Do you think a cabbie should be able to charge you based upon what he thinks the trip was without a meter? Do you think he'd be able to trust you to do the same thing?

[photofly]

How is Hobbs time *not* flight time?

[Rookie50]

Having trained at both, I kind of vote for the small uncontrolled airport. More independent learning needed, communicating and fitting into the traffic pattern, etc.

I did ab intro at CZBA, if you can comfortably handle 27/09, 2200 or so x 50, most places won't be an issue and you learn touchdown and approach discipline.

[trey kule]

Depending on the type of hobbs, the time starts typically when the engine starts (oil pressure), and stops when the engine stops. The hobbs themselves are also sometimes electrical, and will stop if the master is turned off in flight. I should note that there are hobbs type meters in some of the sophisticated singles, that measure air time via a sensor. None to my knowledge record flight time.
Unless things have changed, flight time is supposed to begin when the plane first moves until it stops. A difference of a minute or two.....on every flight! That adds up to hundreds of dollars extra to a students cost. And that is if the aircraft does not sit for a minute or two warming up, or being able to do its runup at start before it moves. Time a hobbs carefully. See just how accurate they are.

I am not sure why, photofly, but you seem to take offense at everything I post. Maybe spare me the trouble and post the definition of flight time, and how a hobbs reflects that accurately instead of firing off inuendo questions.

As to the app. I am checking it out and will post a link if that is allowed here...not advertising ....it does require GPS capabality for your ipad.

The problem with pilots accurately recording it is an interesting one, considering that air time is not connected to the hobbs at all. And that is what goes in the jl.

Anyway, that is enough for thread drift.

[photofly]

Depending on the type of hobbs, the time starts typically when the engine starts (oil pressure), and stops when the engine stops. The hobbs themselves are also sometimes electrical, and will stop if the master is turned off in flight.

The Hobbs meter, like the Quartz clock is typical wired outside of the master, and continues to run even if the master is off, switched by the oil pressure. This stops people flying "free" time by shutting the master off in flight for an hour or two.

Unless things have changed, flight time is supposed to begin when the plane first moves until it stops. A difference of a minute or two.....on every flight!

Wow! a whole minute per flight! Call in the fraud squad! Questions in the House please! TC must put a stop to this at once!

If you're that worried, let the aircraft roll forward six inches immediately after starting the engine then apply the brakes. The aircraft moved, and honour is satisfied all round.

The fact is that the big sign at the dispatch desk says "FLIGHTS ARE CHARGED ACCORDING TO THE HOBBS METER". If you insist someone *doesn't* log the minute before the aircraft moved because it doesn't in your head count as "flight time" then you're costing your students a minute of logged time each flight.

I am not sure why, photofly, but you seem to take offense at everything I post. Maybe spare me the trouble and post the definition of flight time, and how a hobbs reflects that accurately instead of firing off inuendo questions.

I asked because I wanted to make sure your "point" was as foolish as it sounded before I called you on it. It turns out I needn't have bothered: it was that foolish.

[Cat Driver]

The Hobbs meter, like the Quartz clock is typical wired outside of the master, and continues to run even if the master is off, switched by the oil pressure. This stops people flying "free" time by shutting the master off in flight for an hour or two.

Maybe that is what you have experienced in your world.

But in the real world there are Hobbs meters that are wired directly to the master switch with no oil pressure connection.

If the master switch is shut off the Hobbs stops.

[iflyforpie]

That's how I got my last 0.1 of night.... left the master on because the Hobbs was wired directly off the bus.

Of course, I haven't used a Hobbs in years.... most are either broken or non-existent outside the flight school environment.

Straight from the horses mouth, Flight Time 0.2 less than Air Time is an acceptable practice... I only record one set of times.

[JungianJugular]

Judge a service provider based on customer feedback. You'll get your answer from what other people have to say about the services they were provided by instructors aka go hunt down students.

It's a lot of money - do your research and talk to other people.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

Btw. I hear there is an app out that accurately records flight time...some schools use hobbs time. In my opinion, a ripoff. Hobbs time is not flight time

I find it funny that this comment precipitated a discussion about the inner mechanics of the Hobbs meter ( which I found interesting, BTW ). I just naturally assumed TK was implying that you don't want to waste time sitting in the plane, negotiating the ramp, taxiing, waiting for traffic, etc., when that time would be better spent in the air.

I always hated the fact that I paid at least an extra $30 for every flight, just for time on the ground. I would pay for 1.5 hours and only get to log 1.3 in my log book. There's a reason you knock off 0.2 hours from the Hobbs when recording flight time.

Especially if you are practicing circuits, I could see how a busy airport could cut your actual flight time by a third or more.

To respond to the actual question posed by the OP, I have heard numerous times that the flight club where I trained is the busiest uncontrolled airport in Canada and that if you could navigate the circuit there, then you could likely do it anywhere. True ? I dunno. I did find it congested at times and when flying to a handful of other airports, I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of traffic. So, maybe flying in a relatively chaotic environment is a good idea, all things considered.

[photofly]

I always hated the fact that I paid at least an extra $30 for every flight, just for time on the ground. I would pay for 1.5 hours and only get to log 1.3 in my log book.

That should *not* be the case. For the purposes of licencing, you should be logging flight time, not air time. The Hobbs time is flight time, to within a minute or so, so if you paid for 1.5 hours on the Hobbs you should be logging 1.5 hours in your personal log and in your PTR.

There's a reason you knock off 0.2 hours from the Hobbs when recording flight time.

No - you should knock about 0.2 off the Hobbs when recording air time, not flight time.

[trey kule]

Pf...

Let me see if I get this correct. When you start a plane on a cool morning for the first flight of the day,mdo you just immediately let it roll forward then, and then sit while it comes up to temp?
I was being kind with the one minute....

But lets look at some numbers.

An extra hour lost of training. Logged, yes, but no training done...and thats if the hobbs meter is accurate, and you spent no time bringing the engine up to temps ( i didnt bother mentioning that before because that time varies on preheating, OAT etc.

But an hour a ppl a student ...$200 x the number of students a flight school has....we can be talking many many thousands. I guess that is OK if you only cheat each student a little bit.

There is nothing foolish in trying to get a student the maximum training they are paying for. ...unless you are an instructor or FTU. That lost hour can be put to better use then havpnding over their visa.

As was mentioned, this practice is pretty much an FTU practice.

Hope my foolishness does not affect your T4 or your conscience to much.

I wonder how often FTUs calibrate or check their hobbs meeters for accuracy...should be a note in the jl I would think.

[Cat Driver]

When are you going to retire Trey K?

I assume you will not stay in China when you retire.

What this industry needs is a dedicated training company to properly train flight instructors.

[Big Pistons Forever]

It's a lot of money - do your research and talk to other people.

Of all the posts on the thread this comment is IMO the one that really matters. I am an instructor and if anybody asked I would be happy to give them the names of all my prior students and invite them to contact them to get an opinion of how their flying instruction went. Any good instructor should be happy to do the same.

[photofly]

Pf...
...<random crap removed from your post> ..
But lets look at some numbers.

An extra hour lost of training.

Let's be quite clear: flight schools mandate that students pay by the time recorded on the HOBBS meter, not by the "training hour", "the TK-approved activity hour", or some other random measure that suits you. And if you think no valuable training can happen during those precious minutes after the engine is started and before the aircraft moves, then you are the one who needs to improve the time management of your training.

Get off your ridiculous fantasy high-horse that you are the only honest and competent flight instructor in the world.

[photofly]

I wonder how often FTUs calibrate or check their hobbs meeters for accuracy...should be a note in the jl I would think.

Do you see the word "Quartz" on the fascia?

hobbs.jpeg (7.21 KiB) Viewed 4218 times

http://sensing.honeywell.com/honeywell- ... 2-6-en.pdf
Accurate to 0.02%, according to the manufacturer. That's better than 1 second per hour.