Risks of night flying

[Big Pistons Forever]

The recent sad end to a night flight is being discussed in another thread. Rather than risk hijacking that thread I thought I would start a new one in an attempt to generate a discussion.

Instead of more pontificating from me I thought I would challenge the readers of this forum.

So to start the discussion:

-Before you even get in the air for you planned VFR night flight as an non instrument rated PPL, what addition risks exists by virtue of this being a night flight, in the preflight planning, preflight, taxi, runup ?

[CpnCrunch]

I found it useful to do my dual night XC in slightly marginal weather. We ran into some low cloud/fog at one point, and I experienced first hand the difficulty in recognising entering cloud, and the tendency to start banking due to a false horizon. Now I only fly in good weather at night, but there's always the risk of running into fog or cloud so it's good to have a little bit of experience.

[timel]

I think at night time the decision making (go or no go) is generally more difficult to do.

In autumn when you fly to places where there are a lot of lakes, you have to be careful with fog starting early during the night.

During winter, you might stop for a dinner in Ottawa and your wings will be full of frost when you come back.

Your gyro instruments are mandatory and make sure they work perfectly before you go.
Place where you can fuel are more limited than day time, make sure you have working "alternates" or a plan B?

Always follow roads or cities. Flying in dark hole is not night vfr flying.

Illusions during dark nights can be as close to flying into clouds, always double check your instruments especially on approaches and watch out for the dark hole illusion.

[New_PIC]

In addition to the weather, check the phase of the moon. Also recognize high cloud layers that could limit moonlight. I think bright moonlight is almost as good as day VFR for visibility, while a lack of moonlight can require full instrument flight over unlit areas.

[trey kule]

Recognize how dangerous it is. Dont fool yourself thinking that by checking the moon phase, planning better, you are going to make it safer.

Dont try and challange yourseld by flying in marginal VFR unless you are IF rated and the aircraft is propely equipped. That is not a smart idea at all. You are relying on luck . And it could just as easily end up with you being discussed in the accident thread if you are a bit unlucky....x- country night flying VFR is dangerous as it is. Dont add to it by deliberately choosing to lower the margin of safety.
Btw. Having an instructor on board does not necissarily make it safer.

Following a big highway is not going to help if you run into fog..and not going to really give you any options. The thinking is I am being safe because I am not flying over an unpopulated area.

Stick to local night VFR flights even after you have your rating until you get your IF ticket

Understand clearly that x-country night VFR is dangerous ( did I mention that before?). and stop thinking you can make it safe by changing this or that, or doing this or that. You are relying on luck, and you only need to review the accident thread to see what happens when luck runs out.

We all talk about PDM. Then the question is asked...how can we make this safer?
Am I the only pilot here who thinks the answer should be dont fly VFR x-country at night unless you and the plane are able to go IFR??

The biggest risk is pilots thinking they can somehow make something safe by doing something to make it safer...it is still not safe. Bthe most important PDM....safer is still not safe!

[Cat Driver]

If single engine at night is safe why does T.C. forbid single engine night charters except for a couple of turbine singles?

[Rookie50]

Trey,

I lean to agreeing with you on your last question -- certainly unfamiliar, long XC. I did Ottawa - Kitchener and other fairly long legs (at the time) at night, but I was very proficient on instruments prior to my IR rating, and had an autopilot and well equipped panel. A couple of those flights, in spite of this, the haze was so bad -- no clouds, just haze --- it was very close to IMC, looking back. Not a comfortable experience, just to the south of the area as the recent accident. Too dark.

I think the stats for night VFR accidents should make us wary....

BTW I am IR rated 3 years and 50+ actual in IMC, and I don't do night IFR approaches or night IMC (although I can if I have to).

Have super conservative rules, you might live longer in this risk taking enterprise.

[dave_091]

Can you post a link to the other thread. I'm curious for educational reasons.
I'm a low time pilot with a night rating and I am always trying to learn through others experiences.

Thanks

[Rookie50]

Can you post a link to the other thread. I'm curious for educational reasons.
I'm a low time pilot with a night rating and I am always trying to learn through others experiences.

Thanks

That's great Dave. I suggest reading accident reports -- the detailed ones -- that correspond to the type of flying and aircraft you engage in, all you can. You will see patterns, and then apply that to your own PDM. Fly safe.

The link is the "missing peterborough" on the accident thread.

[PilotDAR]

When I night fly, it is a mind set change. From "Bimble around" to "Serious business, no slacking". Always planned to instantly react to IMC type conditions if needed, while planning to maintain VFR.

I recall when returning with my 150 newly painted in 1992, a nice late autumn night, 150 mile cross country over a decent route I new well. From 25 miles back, I could see the lights of home town. From 5 miles back I could see my runway lights at home. By the time I was long final, I could only see fog. I remember breaking off the approach and looking straight down as I flew over my house. Tempting to try again, but I resisted. If I could not VFR in the first time, the second time would be much less good. I climbed to a safe altitude, and was now completely on top. I remember thinking that there was no longer any room for me to get it wrong. Fog was now everywhere beneath me. I called FSS, and explained my predicament, and asked which way to head. In the absence of all other guidance, I would have headed to Trenton, and begged a PAR approach. But FSS pointed me to the northwest, and that worked, I had several choices, and got into Collingwood fine, with fuel not yet a concern. But I learned that the first sign of something going wrong was probably your last opportunity to enact plan B and get it all right after that - AND DON'T CHANGE THE PLAN AGAIN AFTER THAT!

That night JFK junior spiraled in, I had flown a coastal leg in the 150 at dusk. Having flown the 150 to Nantucket a couple of times, I new exactly what caught him. The poor fellow for all his wealth and resource, just never got far enough to understand the risks of night flying, and the fact that a very capable aircraft cane lure a bold pilot much further into such conditions than they should ever go. Happily both my modest aircraft, each just Gyro/comm/GPS equipped (and encoder TXP in the 150) really remind you pretty obviously that they do not belong imbedded in night "IMC" type conditions. So I'd really better just dip my toe, rather than dive right in to long remote night cross countries in them. Flying the Garmin glass panel 182 sucks you right in with unjustified confidence.... Not good!

I very much agree that for the freedom we have to fly night VFR in North America, the cost should be an effective decision making course, and demonstrated instrument flying skills, which are linked to the "turn and run to your plan B" course of action, not pressing on into it.

So now, I still night fly fairly regularly, but always with the IMC mindset. From my home runway, all takeoffs and landings are "black hole", so real GPS, altitude, and reference to instruments discipline.

[LousyFisherman]

The recent sad end to a night flight is being discussed in another thread. Rather than risk hijacking that thread I thought I would start a new one in an attempt to generate a discussion.
Instead of more pontificating from me I thought I would challenge the readers of this forum.
So to start the discussion:
-Before you even get in the air for you planned VFR night flight as an non instrument rated PPL, what addition risks exists by virtue of this being a night flight, in the preflight planning, preflight, taxi, runup ?

As a 250 hour PPL I consider night VFR too dangerous to even consider taking the rating. Just look at the stats. Amateurs die at night orders of magnitude more often than during the day, Many think I take crazy/stupid risks with my float and mountain flying and yet compared to the risks of night VFR, I consider them pretty minimal

I agree with Cat's opinion, night should be IFR

IMHO
LF

[PilotDAR]

I agree with Cat's opinion, night should be IFR

Be careful what you say. Perhaps VFR night fliers should demonstrate good IMC skills. IFR would require a process which would make local night flying at small aerodromes nearly impossible, for lack of approaches, and ATC availability.

[eddyb123]

The additional risks would be mostly related to not being able to see much in any given direction I would think. Making sure your lighting inside the A/C was working and U had a back up light. Wouldn't the additional risks be printed and in your face before you took the night rating ground school?
I haven't been there yet.

[jschnurr]

Wouldn't the additional risks be printed and in your face before you took the night rating ground school?

This is an elementary misconception, that if you simply know the risks then you won't succumb to them. But I believe that there is a huge difference between reading about, say, the black hole effect, and experiencing it. Just like you can read about crosswind landings and know it thoroughly on an academic basis, but until you become proficient in them, then you don't really know them. Your mind isn't telling you to push 'forward on the stick' as you sit in the classroom reading about black holes. Don't be fooled that you will be safe because you know about the dangers.

When I did my night rating, my instructor told me "If there's one thing you take away from this lesson, let it be calling 'positive rate' after takeoff." I thought he was crazy; we were departing in a 172 over Kingston. In hindsight, having flown "up north" at night, the first time departing at night was a surreal, scary, and intense experience. After the runway lights are behind you, you're on instruments - no questions. You had better be proficient in IFR flying.

[eddyb123]

The question was"what addition risks exists by virtue of this being a night flight, in the preflight planning, preflight, taxi, run up ? " preflight would be same as always except you need a flashlight, preflight not sure where additional risks are there, Taxi is the most risk now your moving, you could lop someone's head off cause you can't see, or crash cause you can't see or distracted, or go over a thresh hold cause your distracted for a second. another risk is you forget what your instructor said because it's night and so different you get distracted. Wow am I doing I've never had instruction or read anything on night flying much.

[Shiny Side Up]

I agree with Cat's opinion, night should be IFR

Be careful what you say. Perhaps VFR night fliers should demonstrate good IMC skills. IFR would require a process which would make local night flying at small aerodromes nearly impossible, for lack of approaches, and ATC availability.

Something interesting to note as well is that its possible to be instrument rated, but not night rated. So while the skills are related, there are separate aspects to it. Personally I don't think anything regualtory could make night flying safer, mitigating the risks of flying after dark is a larger picture of thinking. Flying IFR at night poses many of the same hazards that flying VFR night does. Good instrument flying skills, not to mention current practice at it is extremely helpful, but not strictly the only necessary requirements.

[Cat Driver]

No one has commented on this question yet.

If single engine at night is safe why does T.C. forbid single engine night charters except for a couple of turbine singles?

[looproll]

Richard Bach told me he would parachute out of his single at night if the engine quit rather than ride it in. I'm starting to come around to that idea that a PLF is going to hurt less than smashing a tree at 80mph!

[eddyb123]

The question was"what addition risks exists by virtue of this being a night flight, in the preflight planning, preflight, taxi, run up ? " preflight would be same as always except you need a flashlight, preflight not sure where additional risks are there, Taxi is the most risk now your moving, you could lop someone's head off cause you can't see, or crash cause you can't see or distracted, or go over a thresh hold cause your distracted for a second. another risk is you forget what your instructor said because it's night and so different you get distracted. Wow am I doing I've never had instruction or read anything on night flying much.

[B208]

No one has commented on this question yet.

If single engine at night is safe why does T.C. forbid single engine night charters except for a couple of turbine singles?

TC's job is to protect the travelling public from risks about which they are ignorant. TC has less of a mandate when it comes to protecting trained pilots from assuming risks to themselves and their non paying / family member pax.

[Cat Driver]

So T.C. is of the opinion that single engine at night is to high a risk to allow paying passengers to be carried, but non paying passengers are expendable?

Interesting way of thinking.

[PilotDAR]

So T.C. is of the opinion that single engine at night is to high a risk to allow paying passengers to be carried, but non paying passengers are expendable?

'Same for amateur built isn't it?

[Cat Driver]

Yes PilotDar somehow in T.C's way of evaluating human life it is O.K. kill people who are not paying for the flight but against the rules to kill people who pay for the flight.

Makes one feal real warm and fuzzy knowing they are looking after us.

[trey kule]

I dont think to many people have a beef with TC over this issue. Nothing wrong with their thinking...they are doing their job.

On a nice clear night, I see nothing wrong with doing a little local night VFR. The night rating adequately prepares a pilot for this if the rating was done properly.

And a change in TC policy would eliminate that.

Secondly, you can file VFR on a night cross country, but hold an instrument rating. I like that option.

The problem is the non instrument rated pilot who flies night c-country VFR that accelerates the danger. And read the posts here. Some rather interesting ideas about night flying.

And IIRC, in Canada, commercially you can haul freight single engine at night, VFR, as long as the pilot holds an IFRating. Aircraft is equipped etc. ...and your AOC allows it.

[pelmet]

It's all about managing and calculating risk.

Are the risks higher? Sure they are. If you lose the engine you are going to have a greater problem with the off airport landing. But what are the chances of losing an engine due to mechanical failure? Fairly low but there is a chance. Low enough chance for me that I am willing to take the chance on many aircraft.

An increased level of planning and precaution is frequently required depending on a multitude of issues such as experience, aircraft, weather terrain, etc. While high terrain will put many areas off limits, there is no reason to mindlessly just throw ones hands up and yell its too dangerous when its is not for many regions for many pilots.

While I don't know the specifics of this accident, a low time pilot flying in marginal weather in a dark area is asking for an accident. Flying on a nice night from Montreal to Toronto or Calgary to Edmonton should be no big deal and quite enjoyable.

Instrument flying capability can greatly improve safety.