Behchoko Crash NWT??

[Illya Kuryakin]

Barrie, North Bay, Pelee Island, Winnipeg...

If I was about to blast off in a Caravan after being given the PIREP the tower controller issued, I'd be reciting those places in my mind, and then to my manager if given any flak for waiting it out...

Always tell them "The keys are in it..."
Illya

[Axial Flow]

Glad this turned out almost a best case scenario considering what has happened in other situations. I believe the ATR for Hay River departs at 0700 and had reported tops to 16000 with light rime (as per the atc recording).

I went through this disturbance yesterday and tops were over 22000 and temps at -20 at the top and much warmer below.

I don't think the TAF was calling for the freezing rain but it was coming down pretty hard here this am and when I heard a plane going to Simpson went down I had memories of Winnipeg but thankfully it worked out much better.

Here was GFA this AM. Patchy mixed to 14000, no FZRA forecast like it was yesterday for the SW of the territory. Also FZRA warnings for all of northern Alberta with same system today.

[pdw]

I don't fly Caravans but would icing even have been a factor here?

Theoretically severe icing could cause an engine failure, I expect that the airplane would come out of the sky well before the engine stopped. If it was a genuine engine failure I'm curious as to the cause. It's been a few years since I was at Caravan sim, but I do remember going over every single instance of an engine failure in the Van, I think there were only one or two that were not preventable.

With the drag of ice needing more power to sustain flight, the ITT can quickly become the limiting factor when attempting to access the maximum excess engine power available. If this was the case, then it's not an actual engine 'failure' ... just that the maximum sustainable power-setting shy of an over-temp event failed to be sufficient to maintain altitude back to the airport. The turbine engine can still be running in that situation even when it's already cooked ...

[Kzanol]

Booted caravans are terrible in icing. Without immediate application of max power, the airplane slows up way too quickly and ice starts forming underneath the wing behind the protected area. At slower speeds, the ice doesn't shed properly and your problems go from bad to worse way too fast. At max power you should be able to cruise a loaded van at roughly 160 knots. By the time you have enough ice to blow the boots your back at 140 and still nose level. This works for a little bit but you better hope you have a way out. A lot of operators and pilots also seem to ignore the max icing takeoff weight of 8750lbs, usually cause it's all about payload. That's roughly 300lbs less than normal, not to mention your probably taking ifr fuel already.

[HO Driver]

This was a non-fatal accident, thank goodness!! The Caravan got a "get out of jail free" pass today. When the hell will TC decertify the icing approval for this AC? How much more blood do they need to have on their hands?
The caravan sucks in ice and should be prohibited from operating in icing conditions. PERIOD!!!!!!!!! I would never put my wife and kids on a caravan knowing icing conditions exist. I feel really bad for the poor uniformed passengers have no clue how much danger they are facing when the Captain decides to operate in icing conditions.

[Kzanol]

Unless it's a TKS caravan, completely different ball game. Amazing handling in ice, the two don't even compare!

[Maynard]

I know nothing about it, how long would a tank of fluid last if it were on high?

[Kzanol]

From the book, you have 3.5 hours on normal, 1.5 hours on high, and 45 minutes on max. It doesn't seem to last as long as it says though, however as long as you don't plan to sit in icing , fluid quantity is never an issue.

[Edo]

WEAKEST CADOR EVER -

Date Entered:2014-11-20
Narrative:
A Discovery Air International Cessna 208 (DA223) departed Yellowknife, NT (CYZF) at 1344Z flight planned to Fort Simpson, NT (CYFS). At 1406Z, DA223 requested clearance to return to CYZF due to icing. At 1419Z, DA223 declared MAYDAY due to severe icing.
O.P.I.: Further Action Required:No


No mention of an off airport landing, Further Action required NO? WTF. I know these are preliminary but come on.

Didnt Tindi plan to install a camera system in the cockpit after the Lustel'ke accident?

[trey kule]

The Caravan is a fine machine. The problem when it comes to icing is that they are unpressurized and thus end up staying in icing rather than being able to climb through it.
The solution is really easy. Pay attention to the weather ...pay even more attention to
PIREPS. Turn around at the first hint of icing.

No ..."we will go have a look" as we heard a pilot say on the ATC tape.
No..Willingfully flying it, as Doc posted a pilot was doing last year...just for the experience.

But lets review the ATC tapes.. The folks at Buffallo were not flying due to icing conditions. None of their planes falling out of the sky.

The pilot here made a big dumb mistake that could have cost people their lives. People who trusted him and the company.
Instead of proposing TC limit the Caravan, how about they hold the company accountable executive accountable for the dispatch. How about holding the dispatcher responsable as well..i am willing to bet none of them told the pilot not to go...

Caravans tend to be flown by the young and inexperienced, and despite the perception, the danger is not pressuring them to fly...it is keeping them from killing themselves because they believe they are smart and invulnerable. That is management's job, and it looks like they failed here..

Training is also a key issue. Proper trsining. Flight Safety does some flight in icing training on the sim that is extremely good, and simply cant be done in a plane..the cost of training a few pilots properly is probably less than the deductable on the plane, and the loss of customer confidence.

I am impressed that despite the designers of the Caravan, and all the collective experience, detailed use of the bypass in the POH, someone here is so much wiser and smarter that they dont think using that bypass gate is necessary in icing....could have saved Cessna a whole bunch of money if they had just told Cessna that...after all, what do they know?

There is a good lesson here not to be "that guy". I hope he at least learned a lesson today.

My rant for the day

[CpnCrunch]

I thought the booted caravan was already prohibited from flying in moderate or greater icing:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/regulatory_an ... -10-15.pdf

The GFA posted above appears to show moderate icing from 2500 to 4000.

[trey kule]

GFA is a broad area forecast....is is not gospel
There were PIREPS regarding the cloud thickness and icing conditions.

[CpnCrunch]

GFA is a broad area forecast....is is not gospel
There were PIREPS regarding the cloud thickness and icing conditions.

Regarding icing, shouldn't the GFA be taken as gospel unless you have a PIREP saying there is less icing than forecast?

[arctic_slim]

Very interesting discussion here. I have flown with this pilot before and I can tell you he is a smart and very capable pilot but since I have not talked to him yet I will not speculate on anything, what information/PIREPS he had about the weather etc before he went, we should let TSB decide whether he made a good/bad decision. Either way i'm glad they are all alive.

I also find it interesting to see someone saying they would rather have the separator closed and have extra power instead of opening it. Maybe I'm missing something but how do you come to that conclusion? How is that extra power useful when the engine is failed because a big piece of ice broke off and went into the engine when it could have gone out the side? Im also assuming you mean just in icing, surely you would not leave it closed in heavy precipitation too right?

Those Caravans sure perform crap in icing, as soon as I get in it I initiate escape plan A or B but never sit in it.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I flew Caravans before they got the reputation they have today in ice. News flash! It's NOT the airplane. It's the pilots who fly them. I've encountered ice on Caravans. Many times. Prolly more than you. As soon as you suspect the ice is anything more than a passing phase, leave the ice. Nobody trains this. The van is not great in ice, but it's not the one way ticket to death pilots think it is. And, if they feel that way, how are they getting themselves into trouble. If you encounter anything more than a small bit of rime ice on a heading of 090, a turn to a heading of 270 will cure the problem. Instantly.
TK brings up some good points read them.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

If you remain in ice long enough to be thinking separator, or no seperator, (from a power or a large chunk of ice breaking off point of view) you sir, are an idiot.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

GFA is a broad area forecast....is is not gospel
There were PIREPS regarding the cloud thickness and icing conditions.

Regarding icing, shouldn't the GFA be taken as gospel unless you have a PIREP saying there is less icing than forecast?

A GFA with ice should be a "heads up", as should a PIREP. Neither are gospel. A PIREP mentioning ice, expires pretty much right away.....and GFA's are guides, at best. I've flown into ice not mentioned in a GFA as often as ice that was mentioned. In the winter, in cloud, there's always a chance of some icing.
Illya

[Donald]

Considering this flight departed before 7am, were there any pireps available prior to departure?

[Axial Flow]

As per the GFA I cut off the description of icing which is in the top left hand corner. It was 2000-14000 in the area over YZF for 12Z. If the GFA was gospel people wouldn't fly half the time. I remember checking the icing GFA after the Winnipeg C208 crash and it was calling for icing all the way to 17000 from YWG past YQT but after the crash it was amended to show a red band of severe clear ice in FZRA over YWG and east...Even with that GFA there is no red band to report severe icing in freezing rain although the entire northern half of Alberta was under public freezing rain warning and was actually receiving it. Why the public forecast and aviation forecast differ so much some days amazes me.

Caravan is good to transition ice but if you can't get free of it you better hope the ice is frozen on the surrounding lakes you are flying over I guess. Fortunately I never experienced icing issues in a Caravan, but having an acute paranoia of sitting in it when you can go from cruise speed to best angle with max power in a short amount of time might of helped.

[CpnCrunch]

A GFA with ice should be a "heads up", as should a PIREP. Neither are gospel.
Illya

CAR 605.30 would suggest otherwise. You can't take off into forecast or reported icing unless your plane is certified to handle it.

Interestingly, however, AD 2007-10-15 says you can take off into forecast icing, but must exit if you encounter moderate icing.

[Axial Flow]

I remember reading this article in regards to certification envelopes and in regards to severe ice (FZRA, FZDZ, FZFG)...


Winter Ops by Paul Carson

At the end of the article which summarizes....

Conclusion
Takeoff into known freezing drizzle and/or light freezing rain is outside of the flight envelope for which any airplane currently operating today is certificated. Not only is it unwise to operate in such conditions, it is also unsafe, and based on the best information available at this time, also illegal.

Also the opening paragraph states: "...a Transport Canada Civil Aviation (TCCA) inspector observed a number of airplanes operated by various air operators taking off in conditions of freezing drizzle (forecast and actually reported)." It is nice and easy for an Inspector who works 8-4 with no operational pressures to get anything done except think of his 3 coffee breaks and 1 hour lunch. Like Doc..I mean Illya said though "The keys are in it..." if someone questions your choices. It comes down to financial resources, operating rules (703 VS 705) and no enforcement...oh and the fact SMS is a load of horse shit. Kind of a rant at the end here and not directed at the current incident.

[bigsky]

Pictures and an interview.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/air ... -1.2845532

[arctic_slim]

If you remain in ice long enough to be thinking separator, or no seperator, (from a power or a large chunk of ice breaking off point of view) you sir, are an idiot.
Illya

Jesus, I'm just asking a question, no need to be ass about it. No wonder less and less people come to this site. Nobody can have a normal discussion anymore.

[esp803]

I'm not trying to claim that I am wiser or smarter than the guys who designed the Caravan. I don't have as much experience as most of you high time guys, but I do have several thousand hours in Caravans, in the mountains, in the north. Here is my reasoning behind prefering the Sep Closed in most icing situations.

1) The 100 mile safe from the airport I primarily operate out of is 11 300'. Unfortunately the stock caravans lack the power to operate effectively at the altitude required. With the Sep closed, I can still pull full torque at those altitude, with it open I cannot. Without full power, in an upgrossed stock engined caravan at 12 000'+ without full power, it can't "get on the step" and mushes through the air, Ice builds where I can't shed it, and things go down hill from there The super van and the blackhawk do much better as they can maintain speed and a better AoA for shedding ice.

2) There are not a whole lot of airports where I operate, and of those there are even fewer that have useful approaches (2 ILS's in the territory), with that in mind, I don't spend much time in ice by either turning around, descending below it if VFR is an option, or climbing through it, If I deam it to be safe.

3) I'm more affraid about deploying the sep and it shedding ice into my engine, then ice shedding on it's own into the engine. I have never been iced to the point (or had the speed) to shed ice off the inlet, wings, tail or any other surface.

4) Heavy precip is different then icing, I do use the Sep and the ignitors, I don't think I've ever seen heavy precip in the Yukon. but hey, I've only been up here for 30 or so years.

5) The POH is designed around what the Caravan was designed for, which is not what we use it for. It's not a bush plane, it wasn't designed for 9062, and to get "certified for known icing", well I'm sure you know that the level of icing it's certified for is quite minor. Full flap, back side of the power curve approaches into short boxed canyon strips and lakes were not high on the designers lists of needs.

I've also had the opportunity in my thus short career to fly almost every iteration of the caravan, 600hp baby, 675hp baby and grand, Blackhawk, Garret, boot equipped and TKS. I've found that most are capapble of operating safely in LIGHT icing, provided some common sense is used. The Caravan sim, does a terrible job demonstrating icing, I spent most of my last sim time experimenting with icing. The problem is you let the ice build, loose airspeed to 120, blow the boots, and magically you gain 30kias. This is simply not the case, with the exception of hte garret which seems to be able to maintain it's speed with more ice than I am comfortable with. Techniques that should be in the POH at some place (in my opinion) are things like, if you are at a safe altitude, descending 500' to pick up speed to blow the boots, then climb 750 with the extra airspeed and cleaner wing.... repeat as needed. It's surprising how well this technique works, although it's a little harder to do in controlled IFR environments. I've found that the POH's icing speeds are far to low, and generally unsafe in all but the mildest of icing.


E

[Illya Kuryakin]

If you remain in ice long enough to be thinking separator, or no seperator, (from a power or a large chunk of ice breaking off point of view) you sir, are an idiot.
Illya

Jesus, I'm just asking a question, no need to be ass about it. No wonder less and less people come to this site. Nobody can have a normal discussion anymore.

My apologies. When somebody crashes an airplane that should not have been there in the first place, I tend to be an ass about it. Not aimed at you.
Illya