College of pilots

[Illya Kuryakin]

Requiring an educational "base line" as CanadianEh, puts it, cries out "elitist" organization! How would this "keep the standards" high? This 767 driver I mentioned, has pretty high standards. Education has nothing to do with aviation (you know, I mean pilots here) and DonutHole is absolutely correct!
If there were an organization of pro pilots, who referred to themselves as an association, dedicated to improving the industry at the lower levels (sorry airline guys....you don't have to worry about this crap anymore, you have CALPA a, etc.) where it is so greatly needed, I'd listen. I'm not, however an elitist, so the college idea leaves me cold.
Illya

[Diadem]

Profesional Pilots need to unite in order to have a voice that speaks on our behalf. For the time being no one speaks on our behalf, no one listens to us.
Meanwhile, while we pussyfoot about petty BS, most of our employers have united in order to be heard:

http://www.atac.ca
http://www.h-a-c.ca
http://www.canadianaerialapplicators.com
http://www.floatplaneoperators.org
http://www.cbaa-acaa.ca

Our employers understand the principle and advantages of unity, which is why most of them, although fierce competitors, not only united as one, but also why most of them dont like it when us pilots unite, be it under a union, an association or a college.

Sometimes I wonder if some of the anonymous posters on this Forum aren't Fifth column.

In May 2012, we did a petition against the foreign pilots and gathered almost 2500 signatures that many of you signed and we delivered it in person to the Immigration Minister with a copy to the Commons Immigration Committee. They didn't even acknowledge its receipt. They just ignored us. That is how much leverage we have: ZERO.

I know that at least one of the Operator Association listed above has lobbied in favor of TFW pilots, saying they needed foreign pilots to remain in business..... In the meantime we have no voice to counter such claims......

When TC or the Minister, or a Commons Committee wants to hear from pilots, they contact ALPA and CALPA. Some of you out there now have a chance to have your own voice and not always let pilot groups made up 100 per cent of fixed wing airline types speak for you, and instead of jumping on board, you either spit on it or fall for the Trolls.
For 60 miserable dollars that many of you would not hesitate to spend on beer in a single evening......
My spouse spends thousands of dollars annually for her professional association. I spend over 3000 per year on ALPA union dues, a union that could not care less if TC allows Foreign licensed pilots to fly in Canada with foreign licenses

Gilles, if the CoP wanted to impose restrictions on TFWs, I'd support it. If they wanted to improve WAWCONs, I'd support it. If they wanted to protect pilots from dangerous employers, I'd support it. If they actually wanted to be a professional association like the College of Physicians, I'd support it. The problem is that they have explicitly stated that will not get involved in these issues. In fact, I find it odd that you're supporting them so fervently when they've said they won't get involved in matters regarding foreign pilots. If this were an organization with a hard-and-fast gameplan to improve the lives of pilots, with real, tangible goals, I would be giving them far more than $60 a year. But they don't. What good is it to have an organization that speaks for me if they won't even take up any of the issues that are important to me? How does being unified help if the collective answer they give is "We're staying out of this"? Are they going to show up at committee meetings in Ottawa, lean in to the mike, and say "We have no comment" because they don't want to rub anyone the wrong way? Hell, for a $50 annual membership I'll publish a pamphlet on what it means to be professional and refuse to say anything about sensitive matters. Until they're actually willing to step up to the plate and put in some effort to change things I don't see why they're better off with my money than I am.

[trey kule]

The fact that after all the promoting they did only 1 out of 10 pilots is willing to shell out the $60 tells me that I am not alone in my assessment of them.

they seem to be an organization looking for a reason to exist..

[GRK]

What Diadem said! Finally it makes some sense to me, so a thank you for that! After 30 years in Canadian aviation and another 10 offshore, I thought it would be a great idea when the first bit of thinking surfaced about a "College." The understanding of what this college would do and how they would get there, and what they would hold as dear to the members was, at first, unclear to many. It's taken some explaining and I still see confusion and uncertainty by many posters. That speaks volumes. The clarity is lacking in my opinion. The thoughts Diadem posted makes it simple now for me to decide. I won't join, and neither will many from my generation, despite a majority of them having experienced the ups and downs of the industry in Canada. We know what many are capable of (Employers and employees alike) and we know what ALPA and ACPA will do and how they act. We know what the government is capable of when it comes to supporting the business of aviation. Sadly, it won't make a tiny difference if this CoP gains any support from growing their membership. They will never have a big enough voice to make any changes. It's unfortunate to say this, despite the Canadian industry continuing to produce many talented pilots and aerospace people, along with those who are supporters of the industry as a whole. The acts of many small operators and some risk taking pilots will always end up at the head of the news when they invariably cause an accident, and this has alway been the case…it's been that way for years. Has ALPA or ACPA, or the Teamsters been able to prevent that? Have any of the various Federal Governments or TC over the years made any difference? It's possible that some shady operators have been outed, but history proves that they are replaced by others and the circle is never broken. I applaud the efforts of the CoP to give it a go, but think they are leading the retreat and not the charge. So in the meantime, it's important for sites like this to try to lead by becoming an important place for pilots to go to speak out, or ask questions without fear of becoming sidelined by those who belittle, and I challenge them to become clear and honest about that. Over to you Avcanada and the CoP. Fly safe…
GRK

[WhiskeyWhiskey]

Why are they calling this "College of Pilots"? It seems so unprofessional for someone to represent pilots.

Most College programs have a more professional sounding name. "Flight Manangement"

Everytime I hear about this all I picture is this:



And this:

[Liquid Charlie]

Why are they calling this "College of Pilots"? It seems so unprofessional for someone to represent pilots.

Think about that statement next time you are bent over in front of your doctor and he or she is pulling on their glove with a bottle of ky in the other hand they are members o at least 2 colleges - 1 provincial and one federal --

[Cat Driver]

After you are bent over Charlie I hear you prefer he has a hand on each shoulder for that exam?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles, I take it, you have no intentions of addressing the few items that I've listed?
Illya

Me ? I'm just a simple member. I do not speak on the College's behalf.

But many of your concerns are covered here, if you care to listen to this 30 minute presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TycOId19mhg

Here is one slide of that presentation which caught my eye:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mlcilvyz3lm1q ... e.jpg?dl=0

"Ensuring all pilots flying for Canadian operators meet Canadian Standards before they fly in our country"

"Giving a voice to ALL members of our profession, regardless of what part of Aviation they work in"

[DonutHole]

Gilles, I take it, you have no intentions of addressing the few items that I've listed?
Illya

Me ? I'm just a simple member. I do not speak on the College's behalf.

But many of your concerns are covered here, if you care to listen to this 30 minute presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TycOId19mhg

Here is one slide of that presentation which caught my eye:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mlcilvyz3lm1q ... e.jpg?dl=0

"Ensuring all pilots flying for Canadian operators meet Canadian Standards before they fly in our country"

"Giving a voice to ALL members of our profession, regardless of what part of Aviation they work in"

I think the college is a bad idea.

Do we have a professionalism problem within the pilot pool? I don't see that issue as the thing we should be addressing... I think the college is missing the mark.

What pilots need is protection from unprofessional management.

There is only one group of people who ccan fix that, a group of lawyers.

What pilots in canada need is a confidential reporting system to a group of advocates... lawyers who go to bat for us.

That is how we will change the industry, we have to start suing people.... I mean, that has teeth... what will the college do? They won't do anything because they've missed the boat on the actual issues. You can create the most professional pilot possible and he will still be hobbled by crap management.

I want to see a new group that takes dues for a collective legal retainer, pilots get advised on how to obtain evidence and we trap these asshole.

A college with no real mandate or teeth will ever be effective.

Let it be known that all the college cares about is limiting the number of cpls to create a bogus wage hike. What will that actually do for the professionalism of the industry? I actually find it completely unprofessional to look at remuneration before looking at the structural problems that led us to the position we are in.

In short, the college has poorly excited the wrong idea. Are these the kind of people we want representing pilots if they can't even keep the plot?

Not me.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Not often do DonutHole and I stand shoulder to shoulder on an issue, but we're together on this one. Let's start protecting our pilots. Stop worrying whether or not pilots are qualified to work for Canadian operators, ensure Canadian operators are even worthy of the pilots they have.
Illya

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Ok whatever, but while we have nothing and do nothing, some of our employers have these associations that they lobby with, not always in the best interests of the pilots:

http://www.atac.ca
http://www.h-a-c.ca
http://www.canadianaerialapplicators.com
http://www.floatplaneoperators.org
http://www.cbaa-acaa.ca

Here is one of their gems:

http://www.h-a-c.ca/Honourable_Jason_Kenny.pdf

There may be many others like this that we do not know about.......

[DonutHole]

Those organizations all have laser focus on the actual issues impeding the progress of those industries. Also, their micro focus allows them to effectively advocate. The college with its transcendence will not be in a position to advocate effectively because their resources are spread too thin.

I know at least two of the organizations you posted will advocate for pilots.

It just seems like we could target 703 704 ops and pretty much deal with all the issues with one fell swoop.

Furthermore. I find it distasteful, to say the least, that mechanics are being completely overlooked. In 703 704 the mtc is every bit as fudged as the air side. These issues must be dealt with in tandem or we will simply move the problem out of the plane and on to the hangar floor, and the floor is already a mess.

The college just seems disconnected from the reality, and that's a problem. You need to have a clear idea to sell, I mean Gilles, other than a fuzzy feeling you get from perceptually doing something... can you tell me what you actually got when you paid your dues?

[Illya Kuryakin]

A favorite beef seems to be TFW. Love to see the numbers comparing foreign workers flying here in Canada vs Canadian pilots happily filling foreign cockpits.
Illya

[timel]

A favorite beef seems to be TFW. Love to see the numbers comparing foreign workers flying here in Canada vs Canadian pilots happily filling foreign cockpits.
Illya

Note: Foreign airlines come in Canada and recruit Canadian pilots.
Why? Because they lack of pilots.

[DonutHole]

The sad part is even if you get rid of tfw's completely, you haven't solved any of the structural problems in the lower tiers.

Tfw's aren't coming here to fly cessnas and king airs... We've made sure that in canada it isn't worth their while.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I was just looking at this document:

http://www.hrma.ca/wp-content/uploads/2 ... ession.pdf
It called "What does it mean to be a regulated profession?" and its published by the Human Resources Professional Association

I found some sections that caught my eye:

Although professional regulation has some benefits for the profession, its essential raison d’être is to protect the public not to enhance the status of the profession. It is required that all of a regulatory body’s decisions and activities will be done in the ‘public interest.’ In other words, the primary purpose behind all regulatory body activity should be to protect the public from incompetent or unethical practitioners and to ensure the effective provision and access to professional services not to forward the interests of the profession and its members.

The differences between professional associations and professional regulatory bodies
The distinction between a professional association and a regulatory body is one that is not always well understood but which is important to understand. The essential difference between professional associations and professional regulatory bodies is that the former serve the interests of their members whereas the latter serve the interests of the public. This is a fundamental difference that goes right to the raison d’être of the organizations. Professional regulatory bodies are required in law to protect and promote the public interest by regulating the practice of the profession. The fundamental mission of professional regulatory bodies is to minimize and mitigate the risks to the public that may arise from the practice of the profession.

Regulatory bodies:
• define criteria for registration with and certification by the professional regulatory body,
• provide guidance to members in the form of codes of ethics, rules of professional conduct and standards of practice,
• maintain a public register which contains information about individuals registered with the professional, and
• investigate complaints about members and discipline members as required.

Professional associations, on the other hand, have no statutory requirements other than those which apply to all like corporations. Professional associations are constituted to serve the interests of their members:
• provide networking opportunities,
• publish information of interest to its members,
• conduct research,
• stage conferences, seminars, and workshops,
• they maintain job boards,
• negotiate preferential rates for their members for various products and services, and
• lobby governments to influence policy in furtherance of the interests of their members.

So is the CPPC a Regulatory body whose chief mandate is to defend the interests of the public, or is it an association whose mandate was to serve the interests of the members ?

I think its the former and this is probably why most pilots have refused to come ob board.

I think if the College of Professional Pilots of Canada became the Association of Professional Pilots of Canada, it would have more appeal to the pilot population for its chief mandate would be to serve the interests of its members. Let's let Transport Canada defend the interest of the public.

[Meatservo]

Transport Canada only serves the interest of the Government. I'm afraid I think a professional pilot should consider the interest of the public as paramount as a matter of honour.

[Masters Off]

It's really quite simple.

It doesn't matter what any of us think individually. But the college, whether they advertise or do a road trip to educate us all, if they're missing the mark they won't see the numbers. Adapt or die. Unfortunately I think there may be a stubborn agenda there, they may slowly wither on for some time.

So, even if they never answer me back, or use smoke and mirrors, it doesn't terribly matter. I'm one of thousands. If they adapt to do what we want to hear (democracy), look at structure, wage, representation with "teeth" as mentioned, then more of us will back them. Simple math.

It really leaves 3 options. Do nothing, which is working great right now. Adapt to what pilots want (which is the right answer) or if someone else would pick up the torch and take their own go at it. At least we know what needs to be done. There's a model in place, but it would still take a lot of work. Unfortunately, a lot of us have too little time or too much to lose to get involved in such ideas. Or we would have. I wish I had the time and energy to commit to such an idea.

Anyways, I guess it's why I don't fret too much. There's enough voice to give direction of how I already feel. If things don't change, I'll buy my evening's worth of beer. If they do, I'll show support. So far the beer tastes pretty good.

[timel]

I think if the College of Professional Pilots of Canada became the Association of Professional Pilots of Canada, it would have more appeal to the pilot population for its chief mandate would be to serve the interests of its members. Let's let Transport Canada defend the interest of the public.

I think Gilles nails it.
The College should bounce toward an association of pilots which would lobby for pilots fatigue, proper regulations in 703, anti pay to fly regulations, proper licencing for foreign workers, mentoring of junior pilots...

We all want an association that will represent all of us.
One day it will happen, the sooner the better.

It really leaves 3 options. Do nothing, which is working great right now. Adapt to what pilots want (which is the right answer) or if someone else would pick up the torch and take their own go at it. At least we know what needs to be done. There's a model in place, but it would still take a lot of work. Unfortunately, a lot of us have too little time or too much to lose to get involved in such ideas. Or we would have. I wish I had the time and energy to commit to such an idea.

We need to find time to take care of our profession, why is it only Gilles that is speaking officially out for pilots? Where are the AC, WJ, Jazz, SW guys who are doing good in the industry?

I believe the College people have very good intentions, I have big respect for this guys that deceided to start something for Canadian pilots, but we need to move on and find appropriate solutions that will serve us all better, guess it is what we all want?

[Monorail Conductor]

Does anyone have any experience with this alledged CPP mentor program?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I just renewed my membership. I think the CCCP has issues that need to be resolved, but with some good will and effort, there is no problem without a solution.
In any case, there is no alternative, so I think we should give them a chance, especially with the new blood that was recently integrated with the new board members which were selected off a broad spectrum of the flying industry.

Let's fight to protect our profession

[Panama Jack]

Why are they calling this "College of Pilots"? It seems so unprofessional for someone to represent pilots.

Most College programs have a more professional sounding name. "Flight Manangement"

Everytime I hear about this all I picture is this:



And this:

So says the guy who can't even spell "management" correctly.

Few examples of colleges:
https://www.facs.org/
https://www.actl.com/
http://www.colegiodepilotos.org/nosotros/

[snoopy]

Gilles, you know I have the greatest respect for you... but "...new blood that was recently integrated with the new board members which were selected off a broad spectrum of the flying industry." http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/about/executive REALLY???? LOL hardly a broad spectrum of anything resembling diversity.
The "College" is a disgrace and may it finally RIP.

[mmm..bacon]

Any of those guys got a float rating? Or wings that go round in circles?

[Meatservo]

I'm afraid I agree with Snoopy. I see one of the pilots on the board is claiming to have been an important participant in implementing this "Multi crew pilot's license" thing. Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to fill the right seats of big aeroplanes with people who couldn't even rent a 152 legally if they wanted to is not someone I feel comfortable with speaking for me in any official capacity whatsoever. This license is the embodiment of the steady marginalization and undermining of our "profession" that is the problem in the first place! Most pilots bristle when they are characterized as undereducated button-pushers who will soon be replaced by computers- and here we have one of the people who is helping to make that happen!!

As for the rest of them, well yeah, I think the pilots requiring the greatest representation aren't being represented by this college. It goes along with what Donut hole said: "What pilots really need is protection from unprofessional management". The pilots who are most vulnerable to unprofessional management are not represented in this group. In fact, most if not all of those board members are already members of organizations elsewhere that look after their own relationships with management!