Mounties Air Service fudging the numbers

[snoopy]

Well we all know that the easiest way to get rid of a pesky little problem such as the truth, is to shoot the messenger. Problem gone, culture of fear (of reprisal) perpetuated, carry on as before. The good ol' boys club refuses to die in this industry.

You can blame it on the "bush pilots" (which I resent BTW - bush flying is a niche market that does not necessarily entail unprofessional behavior from those who specialize in it), but I guarantee you that if that kind of behavior really is the norm, it's expected from management. If it's not, then the only other conclusion that can be drawn is that management is so incompetent as to be unaware of this widespread problem - and that I highly doubt.

A couple of years back an engineer with the RCMP Air Division for nearly 40 years told me some interesting stories of what things were really like in the Air Division. I was shocked. If all that and this (and likely more we don't yet know about) is true it's extremely disappointing and a pretty piss poor example to set.

Some might call me silly but personally I respect the concept, history and presence of the RCMP and would expect the entire organization to be above reproach and certainly not above the law.

[timel]

Pilots decide how they want to behave.
Management do go with it... somehow.

At RCMP you would think it is up to management to setup a culture of integrity and professionalism.
Pilots decide what they want after that, they put their names in logbooks and any managers against results?

Guess someone unhappy leaked some informations. It is nice to know people still want to do things right.

[justwork]

It's all great to wax-poetics about how I never take off over weight, I never fudge baggage numbers, etc etc.

The reality it's been done everywhere. Don't BS yourself. You may not do it now, or haven't in a while...but its still being done.

That attitude is precisely the problem........

So you've never moved a 300lb woman to a seat a 80lb crack head guy was spitting because of standard weights?

[Liquid Charlie]

Let's face it -- a fact of life for small airplanes and many non-member pilots -- they operate pc12's and while I know nothing about the aircraft I doubt you can fill the tanks and fill the seats and you might only be able to carry 2 or 3 passengers with full tanks and gear but there are 7 passengers (we are likely talking high arctic here) where fuel is really your friend so now we get into that age old aviation problem -- the solution is simple -- right !!! -- wrong !!! -- operators will never change -- square peg into a round hole -- they will never purchase an aircraft for the required mission(s) but try and do it with an aircraft that they are forcing outside the envelop. At the end of the day it's all about money -- nothing else -- get 'er done -- this issue is a very large elephant in the room

[single_swine_herder]

Well said Snoopy ......

[single_swine_herder]

Just watching the news. According to the CBC report the RCMP is suing the integrity commissioner in order to get the names of the whistle blowers who reported the what now appears to be the widespread practice of fudging the paperwork so that aircraft could be dispatched over gross.

A central feature of an effective flight safety program is the concept of a "just culture". That is a good faith reporting will not be punished......

A 604 POC requires a functioning SMS system. A just culture is a central tenet of SMS........

BPF, you've got the picture tuned in very clearly.

Although it may be an exceptionally difficult task to "take the bush out of the pilot after the pilot has been taken out of the bush," the visible behaviour of the pilot CAN be modified.

The "Just Culture" concept is likely unfamiliar to 90+% of the readers of AvCanada and I applaud you for bringing it forward.

For any SMS type information flow and problem resolution system to work properly, (especially in a "low cost at all costs, we'll git 'er done" driven organization) the info simply will not come forward regardless of the platitudes expressed by the managers during staff meetings .... it has to be observed in consistent action for a long time before it becomes the way people think and act when nobody is watching rather the flavour of the week on sale at the ice cream stand.

That's where the difference between a leader vs being a manager of an organization becomes evident ..... and there is a HUGE difference in approach to the two roles.

[Maynard]

Liquid - your signature leads me to believe you fudge numbers.

[Cat Driver]

The irony of the regulator falsifying documents is part of the culture that produces pilots who claim everyone does it so no big deal.

Personally I take that statement as the ultimate insult.

. ..

[AuxBatOn]

RCMPs are not regulators...

[W0X0F]

I am not at all surprised at the auditor's findings. Right or WRONG, it would not surprise me that the same findings could be made at a majority of the operators in the country. If the regulators wish to single out the most belligerent examples for disciplinary action, well I guess that's their job.

What thoroughly disgusts me is that the RCMP sought an injunction to block the release of the report and to obtain the name(s) of the whistleblower(s). To waste the taxpayers money on the Federal Court application in a blatant effort to cover-up and punish selected individuals is another egregious example of the contempt the RCMP as an organization has for the laws of this land and respect for the citizenry.

Before all the RCMP lovers get on me, let me state that there are many, many fine members that serve in a dedicated and honourable fashion. However the structure and culture of the Force is rotten. Be it this example or the murder of Robert Dziekański that they tried to cover-up again by trying to prevent the release of the video or the Highriver firearms thefts and countless more examples to numbers to mention here.

There is a clear pattern of the RCMP as a whole acting as if it were a law unto it's own. I find this utterly unacceptable. It is time there were real consequences for the Forces belligerence. As a start I would suggest that Commissioner Bob Paulson be made to personally pay for all the costs of the Federal Court application. Perhaps having real consequences for stupid decisions at the upper echelons would start turning the RCMP back into something Canadians could be proud of.

[rigpiggy]

I can only guess that the reference to "wrong airplane for the job" was pointed at the piaggio. The PC 12 carries a crapload in comparison to the P180, and the avanti has to fly high to get the range. It would be interesting to know which planes were the main contributors to the problem.

[Cat Driver]

RCMPs are not regulators...

Another know it all using semantics to pick fly shit out of pepper huh?

The regulations are made and enforced under Federal Law...the RCMP are a Federal police force with the power to enforce Federal Law.

[AuxBatOn]

They don't make the law, they apply law. Two very different things...

Nothing says it's an institutional problem within the RCMP. I don't think it's unusual or different from any other flying organization (although it is wrong). No organization is immune from pilot making wrong decision.

[Cat Driver]

They don't make the law, they apply law. Two very different things...

I used the wrong word. However TC or the RCMP they are both Federal Agencies and both have the same duty to abide by the laws they make and enforce.

I can guarantee you I know how the system works, I took them ( The Regulator ) to court for abuse of power and won.

[Sasquash]

Cat, you are indeed 100% right. They are both regulators.

Furthermore, no one should doubt your words on that topic, in light of the ''personal'' interaction you experienced with the whole process!

Sasquash

[boeingboy]

Sorry Boeingboy, that excuse won't get you out of a speeding ticket. I suspect it won't work here either.

I think you misunderstood my statement. TC allows us to use a standard weight for passengers and baggage - even though we all know it's not acurate......it killed these guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Midwest_Flight_5481 and it's still a problem. Even fuel weights - your only hearing 1 side. We have no idea what numbers they were looking at.

Every single one of us is guilty of "fudging the numbers" if you go by what the media is saying. Doesn't matter who you work for or how good your ethics are - every one of us at every company in the country has done it and is doing it every day. Unless you use actual weights for passengers and cargo/bags your breaking the law - According to the newspapers.

Now - I'm simply basing my beliefs that the RCMP has done nothing wrong on the examples given in the media - which we all know has no clue about aviation.......which makes me wonder why everyone here is so quick to crucify them.

[Diadem]

What thoroughly disgusts me is that the RCMP sought an injunction to block the release of the report and to obtain the name(s) of the whistleblower(s). To waste the taxpayers money on the Federal Court application in a blatant effort to cover-up and punish selected individuals is another egregious example of the contempt the RCMP as an organization has for the laws of this land and respect for the citizenry.

Actually, it was the government that tried to stop its release, not the RCMP. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-pi ... -1.2857234 Before you get up in arms and start attacking people who don't deserve it, maybe you should get your facts straight; the RCMP wasn't trying to cover this up, it was the Conservatives.

[CID]

Cat Driver, you sure seem to have problems with authority. The RCMP is not "the regulator" no matter how you twist the relationship. The police don't make the laws, they enforce them. What you should be taking issue with, if you truly understood the relationship is that "enforcement" is breaking the law. Having said that, do you really think no traffic cop has ever driven over the speed limit?

Although these offences and the charges are well defined, and the pilots who broke the law should be charged, the offences are fairly minor. You could argue that they could have caused an accident but based on the information, that's unlikely in my opinion.

[SnotRocket]

Off topic but I once was woken up in my hotel on a lay-over in a small town by an RCMP helicopter landing in the Timmie's parking lot for a donut & coffee run. I wonder if they put that in the books?

[Old fella]

I will personally cut the Cat some slack on this one............ the 'regulator" no, not quite. However they(RCMP) are the "state" and they have the delegated authority to enforce the laws/regulations. It is my considered opinion they, the State(RCMP,TC) should and indeed must show by example, to abide by all laws/regs and more to the point, be seen doing so - bar none. However, it certainly seems they(RCMP) haven't been doing so. Same for TC as I have some of the more devious tactics used by their higher echelon.

[Cat Driver]

There are a lot of people here like you Old fella who can use common sense and understand that compliance to the law includes those who make and enforce it.

Those of you who get all caught up in how I worded my post are free to think what ever you wish.

I have no problem with authority properly used, I do have a big problem with Government employees who think they are above the law.

And to CID :

I have been flying for a living for over half a century in every conceivable area of aviation one can imagine.

I have never been accused of non conformance with the law by the regulator or the RCMP who by extension can be considered as an arm of the regulator.

So why don't you find someone else to annoy?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Off topic but I once was woken up in my hotel on a lay-over in a small town by an RCMP helicopter landing in the Timmie's parking lot for a donut & coffee run. I wonder if they put that in the books?

I don't think its illegal.....

[Cat Driver]

the offences are fairly minor.

Can you tell me where the line between minor and major lies when falsifying W&B documents CID?

[Aft CofG]

http://www.psic.gc.ca/eng/publications/ ... ted-police

[Meatservo]

Jeez, what a tempest in a teacup. Why don't you guys find something more interesting to bicker about?