Is ground briefing necessary

[fxyz]

I've been flying with my instructor for almost 6 hours now and I like him a lot. Every time he just jump in the airplane and tell me about that day's exercise briefly on the way to the practice area. However, I can't help but noticed that all the other instructors did some sort of "mini lessons" in the classroom with their students before they go flying. I asked him about it and he said it's to "save you some money".

Obviously he's trying to help me. I tend to believe that my instructor is the best here and he's using some unique methods to teach me. Still, I'd like to ask your opinions: If you are an instructor, do you do ground briefings before lessons? Do you think is absolutely necessary?

Thanks.

[Shiny Side Up]

From the CARs:

405.31 No person shall commence a training flight unless the trainee has received from the flight instructor

(a) a pre-flight briefing; and

(b) where new flight exercises are to be conducted during the flight, preparatory ground instruction.

Now ask what constitutes a pre flight briefing and preparatory ground instruction. As I recall, you only have a few hours and are probably doing new exersises every flight, so what do you think?

You shouldn't be covering stuff in the plane that could be covered on the ground before the engine is running. With that in mind, is he still saving you money?

[7ECA]

In the short term, you are going to be saving money (assuming you are a quick learner). But, very soon, you will come to a more complex exercise or lesson, where you won't be able to "get it", and that flight is going to be a total waste of time.

Then, your going to have to keep trying, over and over again, to get it right.

A PGI should only be around half an hour, and a PFB maybe five minutes. Pennies, compared to the dollars you will be spending, in the aircraft on rental, trying to learn what should have been taught and talked about on the ground.

[cgzro]

You loose half your brain in a plane when doing something new and you need a quiet environment with a white board or model plane etc to discuss before going flying. Thats actually less expensive in the long run.

[fxyz]

He did send me some material to read the day before and I also read the FTM. He usually asks me questions about that lesson and correct me if I get anything wrong. The practice area is about 10-15 minutes away so we have plenty of time.

You loose half your brain in a plane when doing something new and you need a quiet environment with a white board or model plane etc to discuss before going flying. Thats actually less expensive in the long run.

You are right! Every lesson is pretty intense but I thought flight training is supposed to be this way.

[Shiny Side Up]

The practice area is about 10-15 minutes away so we have plenty of time.

Your transit time can be more productive if he's not using it to brief you on what you're going to do. Who's flying during this time that he's filling you in?

[fxyz]

I was flying so listening to him at the same time was pretty hard but he said I can learn to multi-task early on. I usually spend a lot of time studying before the lessons to keep up with him.

[Shiny Side Up]

I was flying so listening to him at the same time was pretty hard but he said I can learn to multi-task early on.

Get a new instructor. There's a reason why you brief before you fly, not during it.

[cgzro]

iMhO I think its better to focus on the flying there and back. There is plenty to do without thinking about new things. For example leaning altitude control, perfect heading, scanning for traffic etc.. Those are usually more than enough for most students but im sure it can be done other ways and some students im sure can adapt. I know that ive done that sometimes and ive had it done to me sometimes too so its not like its horrific.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I was flying so listening to him at the same time was pretty hard but he said I can learn to multi-task early on.

Get a new instructor. There's a reason why you brief before you fly, not during it.

Talk to the CFI and describe how your training is going. If there are not immediate substantial changes in the structure of your training, find a new school.

[fxyz]

Thanks! I'll talk to them and see if there's a change.

One more question: My understanding is that the theoretical part is taught on the ground, practical part is taught in flight. Why reading the FTM myself and ask questions not an acceptable alternative of ground briefing?

[Shiny Side Up]

Talk to the CFI and describe how your training is going. If there are not immediate substantial changes in the structure of your training, find a new school.

Fortunately BPF, it does sound like the other instructors are playing ball, so it would be doubtful (hopefully) that this is endemic or endorsed by the school. I agree that the CFI should know, and this issue should get rectified. Its been my unfortunate experience that otherwise decent instructors will suddenly figure this is an acceptable practice, usually when they get a bit of experience and maybe a bit full of themselves.

Why reading the FTM myself and ask questions not an acceptable alternative of ground briefing?

First its important to know the difference between a ground briefing and a Preparatory Ground Instruction (often referred to here as a PGI). Every flight must have a briefing, not all need a PGI, though almost every flight in a typical PPL syllabus up to the first solo should have a PGI. Your reading of the FTM is part of the PGI, as is your asking of questions. There should be more. At the moment maybe the material doesn't seem like rocket science (push cows get big, pull cows get small) but later if this sort of training continues, you'll get frustrated and fall farther and farther behind. Without exception when I find this sort of training has went on the students start taking a lot of time, and consequently get frustrated.

[CpnCrunch]

Thanks! I'll talk to them and see if there's a change.

One more question: My understanding is that the theoretical part is taught on the ground, practical part is taught in flight. Why reading the FTM myself and ask questions not an acceptable alternative of ground briefing?

Strange you should say that, as that is precisely how my flight training was done (in the UK). I'm slightly baffled by flight training in Canada. Do students not have the ability to read books here? Seems to be a lot of 'death by briefing'

[photofly]

My understanding is that the theoretical part is taught on the ground, practical part is taught in flight.

Not quite. Theory is taught in ground school. The practical part is taught and understood on the ground before flying, then demonstrated, practised and learned in the air.

Strange you should say that, as that is precisely how my flight training was done (in the UK).

How much supervision does the CAA exercise over flight training in the UK?

[CpnCrunch]

Theory is taught in ground school. The practical part is taught and understood on the ground before flying, then demonstrated, practised and learned in the air.

Can you give an example?

[clear_blue]

As an instructor, I agree with everyone else on this matter. Briefings (specifically, and especially, at your stage of training) are important. PGI's even more so. Aside from it being a legal issue (as outlined by someone with that CARs reference), it gives you an idea of what to expect, and things that you need to know. PGI's are not the same as ground school, typically they're an hour or so in length (every instructor is different), and it depicts the how and the why of a maneuver (like the aim of the exercise, what you're hoping to accomplish, where it all fits in, how is it practical, how do you do it, are there any considerations, etc.), a briefing simply outlines how the flight will be conducted, and can include a few extra questions here and there about other flight related topics (like emergencies, the conduct or recognition of certain exercises or scenarios [like what is the proper procedure for slow flight? or how do you know if you are stalled, what should you look for?], and can also include things like weight and balance scenarios, navigation/map reading, and aircraft systems, among other things.) Briefings are typically significantly shorter than PGI's, and are meant for that specific flight.
In my humble, but frank opinion, if your instructor really was trying to save you money, you'd get the ground briefings and the PGI's for free, and just pay the going rate for aircraft rental with an instructor. That might be against company policy, but seriously, a lot of us instructors are flexible and willing to negotiate that kind of stuff in exchange for food or coffee

[clear_blue]

Theory is taught in ground school. The practical part is taught and understood on the ground before flying, then demonstrated, practised and learned in the air.

Can you give an example?

I suppose an example of this would be Slow Flight. Theory of flight would be taught in the ground school, all that good stuff about induced drag and lift, and the power curves. That would all be learned in Ground School.

The practical part would be the how and why of slow flight. Stuff like: What are we trying to achieve, where does this fit into regular flying, what are the proper steps for entering slow flight, maintaining slow flight, recovering from slow flight, what are some of the visual cues for slow flight, how do you know if you're in slow flight, what are some of the safety considerations for this exercise, etc...

Once you're ready for the flight, the instructor should teach based on something called the "Demonstration/Performance Method" of teaching, which is outlined in the TC Flight Instructor Guide (page 20 to be exact), but roughly follows 5 basic steps: 1. Explanation, 2. Demonstration, 3. Student Performance, 4. Instructor Supervision, and 5. Evaluation. You may think back to your own training and remember a flight that followed this order, or a similar order, in which the instructor explained the exercise while in flight, then demonstrated it to the best of their abilities, then asked if you had any questions about what to do or how to do it, then had you perform the exercise while they supervised, and at the end of the exercise, they evaluated/critiqued your performance, usually big ticket items like not looking outside during the exercise, or improper procedure (things that could form bad habits).

Hope that helps.

[fxyz]

That helps a lot. Thanks.

We did slow flight a couple of days ago and I think he did cover most of them on the way to the practice area. Besides entry and recovery procedures, he mentioned:

-Slow flight is at the back of the power curve so aoa is high and you need more power to maintain altitude. It's dangers because you may run out of power at some point, for example, dragging it in on final is bad. It's ok if you are close to ground in flare.
-You can recognize slow flight by the sluggish control and slow airspeed. Maybe you can hear the stall warning horn if it's not broken. The attitude is not necessarily nose high.
-He mentioned it's related to the next lesson (stall).
-Look outside and use rudder to control heading. T/O and landing are also slow flights so you have to use rudder.

That's all I can remember. What else do I need to know? Could you give an example?

[DanWEC]

With conditions- Yes!
Making use of the transit time is mandatory, BUT- *"Cockpit Brain"* (very real thing) goes down to 30% of your normal capacity when you're trying to fly an airplane. If you're briefing in and out of the practice area you shouldn't be flying, at first.
What you've said actually sounds pretty good- but- can you describe the transition from best endurance to slow flight?
Death by briefing is an instructor mistake. Any instructor can almost properly hammer a lesson into you, it's experience that dictates how short and efficient it is- usually it starts with him/her testing you via all the questions asked about the lesson. I prefer even after answering the basic questions perfectly, you can still explain the processes, that eliminates any gaps in knowledge. Gaps are bad, later on......

[fxyz]

Actually sounds pretty good- but- can you describe the transition from best endurance to slow flight?

Well, I can't... I only remember after best endurance induced drag decreases but parasite drag increases more rapidly, so the total drag increases and you need more power to balance out that drag.

[DanWEC]

Even though best range, best endurance, slow flight, and stall are all "separate" lessons, they're all progressions and intrinsically linked.

[rule911]

fxyz, Check your PM. In summary, what you are describing, as everyone above has mentioned, is unacceptable--full stop, no exceptions. Jason Rule, Transport Canada,

[PilotDAR]

Not quite. Theory is taught in ground school. The practical part is taught and understood on the ground before flying, then demonstrated, practised and learned in the air.

+1

For the flight testing I do, during which a "company" or Transport Canada pilot will be carried, the ground briefing I will conduct might be the better part of an hour long, before the flight (which might not be that long). By the time we get in the plane, nothing will be in doubt (because questions will have been asked and answered), and everything which is expected during the flight will have a briefed action for each of us. And this is for pilots who are already familiar with the aircraft, on a good weather day. This comes as a result of some less than good experiences I have had (caused) by not briefing well enough, and expecting the other pilot to understand what was being done in the aircraft.

You are not benefiting from overlooking or passing up the opportunity for ground briefings, the PPL curriculum is already too short!

[single_swine_herder]

I'd suspect the instructor isn't being paid for doing briefings .... or not at the same rate.

It is doubtful his true motivation is saving you so much as a dime.

Proper ground instruction before hopping in the aircraft is part of the efficient process of learning because with all the stimulus in an airplane, your brain simply can't devote all the attention to what is happening.

[fxyz]

Thanks guys, I talked to the CFI today. He gave me a loooong brief for free to make up for what I missed and reviewed all air works in the air with me to make sure I was taught properly.

At the moment maybe the material doesn't seem like rocket science (push cows get big, pull cows get small) but later if this sort of training continues, you'll get frustrated and fall farther and farther behind.

That's exactly what he said. He told me I'm doing ok now but he needs to talk to my instructor. I think he's going to schedule a meeting with all the instructors at this school to address the recent issues.