Interesting Incidents From Yesterday

[fxyz]

And to everyone who suggested me to tell an instructor, we told the CFI. He was furious but took us up and showed us some cross wind landings.

[CpnCrunch]

The wind was 31016G21 and we used RW24. I checked the poh so it exceeded the limit.

I don't think there is a 'limit' as such. The 1968 POH doesn't mention anything about maximum crosswinds at all. Some other POHs might give you values between 12 and 15 knots for "demonstrated crosswind". That is just the maximum wind they tried landing with during certification of that model.

I believe you should be able to land in a 16G21 crosswind in a 150 if you use the correct inputs. However I myself probably wouldn't bother flying in those conditions in a 150, even though I'm fairly certain I could land without breaking the plane or going off the runway. If my crosswind landing skills were in doubt then I definitely wouldn't fly in those conditions.

[Cat Driver]

What exactly made him furious?

[fxyz]

CpnCrunch, if the test pilot can only demonstrate 15kts cross wind, does it mean it's very advanced and we should never try it?

What exactly made him furious?

He's not happy because we didn't tell him right away... He said the plane could be damaged but we still flew it back without telling anyone.

[torquey401]

Was the plane snagged at any point due to this incident? Did it hit a runway light? Is it possible the prop hit something? Is it possible something is in fact broken? Was the plane inspected at some point before the next flight and certified?

Nothing in writing breaks the main communication tool, the Journey Log. I know it happens all the time, but that doesn't make it right. Got to love the state of flight training these days. But as long as you don't get into trouble, it's all good, right?

He's not happy because we didn't tell him right away... He said the plane could be damaged but we still flew it back without telling anyone.

EDIT: Exactly, good for him. Did it actually get looked at by an AME? He showed you how to fly in a crosswind, did he also give you a lesson on the pilot's responsibilities and airworthiness?

[fxyz]

Yes he asked a mechanic to take a look at it. We did't hit a runway light, actually we didn't hit anything. The plane just went off the runway briefly and the other student drove it back right away. We were still concerned about any hidden damages after I read the posts here - that's why we reported it to the CFI. Everyone makes mistakes. At least I know what to do if unlikely events like this happen again.

[DanWEC]

Good job!!!

I hope the CFI will simmer down and commend you two at a later time.

[CpnCrunch]

CpnCrunch, if the test pilot can only demonstrate 15kts cross wind, does it mean it's very advanced and we should never try it?

I don't think it's the "maximum that a test pilot can demonstrate". More like "the maximum wind we had at the test pilot's airport while he/she was testing". If you look on this forum (especially at Colonel Sanders posts) you'll see lots of discussion of this very topic.

Still, it's not really a good idea to fly in conditions exceeding the max demonstrated crosswind unless you're confident that you can land the plane without breaking anything.

[Sulako]

Yes he asked a mechanic to take a look at it. We did't hit a runway light, actually we didn't hit anything. The plane just went off the runway briefly and the other student drove it back right away. We were still concerned about any hidden damages after I read the posts here - that's why we reported it to the CFI. Everyone makes mistakes. At least I know what to do if unlikely events like this happen again.

You did the right thing. Sometimes it's scary, but you still did it. Good, for you. Keep doing this thing.

[Rookie50]

LI don't want to ask instructors at our school and put that student into trouble... So what could be the cause of this incident? Obviously he didn't do it intentionally.

PLEASE rethink this mentality. It's a huge problem with students and people new to aviation. I don't know what school you're at, but both yourself and the other pilot need to bring it the CFI/instructor and ask questions. Maybe you have an SMS in place? Keeping quiet about incidents, whether it's your fault or not, is the worst thing you can do. Nobody will get into trouble, hopefully quite the opposite if management is worth anything. In aviation progress is often made by mistakes, it's better if they're learnt from minor ones.

Cheers

Not necessarily. A problem is some of these SMS programs are not run like the program is designed to, which defeats the purpose of enhancing safety.

[fxyz]

Thanks guys!

Still, it's not really a good idea to fly in conditions exceeding the max demonstrated crosswind unless you're confident that you can land the plane without breaking anything.

I remember photofly said something like "instructors have to teach students to fly at the limit of the airplane"? So I'll ask my instructor to practice it with me sometime and won't let him go home until I can reach that level.

[KnownIce]

So I'll ask my instructor to practice it with me sometime and won't let him go home until I can reach that level.

Sadly, the odds are your instructor is a fairly new pilot him/herself, and is also not allowed to fly in significant winds, so you will instead be left to learn this on your own once in the real world.

Keep the plane straight, go around if things look ugly, and remember there is always (or should always) be another runway aligned with the wind you can go land at if you don't like what you are seeing. CFI would rather get a call from you from some other airport stating you'll be home late than to find themselves helping fish propeller pieces out of the snowbank on the upwind side of the runway.

[photofly]

T
I remember photofly said something like "instructors have to teach students to fly at the limit of the airplane"?

It wasn't something I invented, I was quoting TC's Flight Instructor's Guide.

Sadly, the odds are your instructor is a fairly new pilot him/herself, and is also not allowed to fly in significant winds, so you will instead be left to learn this on your own once in the real world.

And yet... perhaps, just perhaps, your instructor is a big boy or girl and actually is allowed out in the wind! Let's be optimistic. (Do I need to make a comment about the needless and baseless flight-school bashing going on here?)

[LousyFisherman]

I believe you should be able to land in a 16G21 crosswind in a 150 if you use the correct inputs. However I myself probably wouldn't bother flying in those conditions in a 150, even though I'm fairly certain I could land without breaking the plane or going off the runway. If my crosswind landing skills were in doubt then I definitely wouldn't fly in those conditions.

16 gusting to 20 is fairly easy in a 150. A steady 25 is pretty well my limit. At that speed I have difficulty keeping the proper alignment as well as keeping the plane centered on the runway during the approach.

YMMV
LF

[Cat Driver]

At that speed I have difficulty keeping the proper alignment as well as keeping the plane centered on the runway during the approach.

Do you use the crab method on the approach or the wing down slipping method?

[rob-air]

I think that the max demonstrated X-Wind is for liability only. Lets imagine two scenarios,

1- Cessna (or else) puts a limiting X-wind, a pilot gets flipped over below that limit, who is to blame?

2-Cessna does not put a X-wind limit, a pilot gets flipped over, who is to blame?

So Cessna makes a grey area by stating that it is the max demonstrated X-wind while certification ( which is probably not the case) and that a pilot with average skills should be able to handle it.
What is average piloting skills?

Now an aircraft out of control getting pushed out of the runway or taxiway, is an incident. Incidents have to be reported to TC under certain conditions. In the OP's case the PIC should have at least informed the owner(operator) of that AC.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

If the OP doesn't mind me jumping in here, then I would like to ask a question about something that happened to me during my solo training which has to do with drift while on the runway, so it is somewhat relevant to this thread.

I was practicing a grass field t/o one day, in what I assumed was little to no xwind. Shortly after my nosewheel came off the ground, I was blown quite rapidly toward the edge of the runway. I was able to avoid going off the edge with rudder and perhaps aileron input ( the input part, I do not recall ). I aborted the t/o and parked to go over what may have happened in my head. It had never happened before or since.

My question is this. If I was blown to the right as my nosewheel came up, does that mean my vertical stab was being pushed from the right as well and therefore I should have added right aileron OR was it a gust from the left that was not able to push me over while I had all 3 wheels on the ground but succeeded in doing so once my nosewheel came up ?

I am partial to the first explanation but am far from certain. I am okay with aileron inputs when I have a reasonable idea of where the winds are coming from. But this particular day, the wind direction and strength caught me by surprise and my ability to quickly determine what was actually going on made it difficult to recover efficiently.

Thoughts ?

[photofly]

Only you can say what actually happened in your case as you were the only one there. But typically, a strong gust of wind from the right will cause the aircraft to weathervane into the wind (natural reaction of an aicraft to nose into the relative wind, to reduce its angle of slip - that's what the vertical stabilizer is for) and having done so, it will now drive itself off the upwind side of the runway. Corrective action is left rudder and right aileron just as if you want to maintain a sideslip angle, which, actually, you do.

[fxyz]

I don't mind at all. I was taught to push the nose down and hold the plane on the ground longer in cross wind takeoffs. This way you'll have more speed when you lift off the ground and less sensitive to the wind.

[7ECA]

Never hold the plane on, using down elevator, you are setting yourself up to wheelbarrow, which is a fine way to wreck something.

Instead of using progressively increasing back pressure (as for a normal takeoff to allow the aircraft to fly off when ready), hold the control column more neutral, and when you reach flying speed (or slightly more), briskly pull the aircraft off the runway, and ensure it does not settle back down, and crab into the wind.

[LousyFisherman]

Do you use the crab method on the approach or the wing down slipping method?

Hey Cat,
I prefer to slip and slide it in gently
I have not even practiced a crab and kick in a couple of years. Far too much other flying, aerobatics, floats ...Line up the runway hold the appropriate slip to compensate for the xwind, and then hold it off until you can't.
I suspect a better pilot could handle another 5 knots quite easily

LF

[fxyz]

Today I finally had some cross wind practice and it's a fun lesson (After a ground briefing ). First time in the circuit and I got the cross wind I wanted! It's 34011G18 and we used runway 06. My instructor asked me to crab and transition to a slip on short final. My landings seem to be okay in general - I never bounced one but did not have many greasers either. The only problem is lining up with the runway. Our conversation went on like this:

Instructor: What do you think about that landing?
Me: Good?
Instructor: No the a/c was not lined up with the runway perfectly.

After another circuit:
Instructor: How's the landing?
Me: Not good?
Instructor: It's pretty good actually.

After one more circuit:
Instructor: How's that landing?
Me: ......
Instructor: When's the last time you did your medical again?

I felt I was lined up with the runway the whole time. How to tell the difference?

[jschnurr]

I felt I was lined up with the runway the whole time. How to tell the difference?

You can tell the runway alignment based on your perspective. You are on the center line when it is appears to be vertical. Here's some pictures to illustrate:



This pilot is way off the right side. The runway appears sloped to the right.



This pilot is almost exactly on the center line. The runway center line appears almost vertical from the pilot's perspective.



Pop Quiz: Which side is the pilot on in these pictures?


Answer: (turn screen upside down to read) uıɐbɐ ʇɥbıɹ ɹɐɟ ooʇ sı ʇoןıd ǝɥʇ :ɹǝʍsuɐ

Here's another one:

˙uıɐbɐ ʇɥbıɹ ʎןʇɥbıןs sdɐɥɹǝd ˙dn pǝuıן ʎןʇɔǝɹıp ʇsoɯןɐ

[photofly]

I felt I was lined up with the runway the whole time. How to tell the difference?

Get a bit of sticky tape. Before you take off, line up on the runway (or use a taxiway centreline) and stick the tape at the bottom of the windshield to line up with the centre line from your point of view. Then later when you're trying to line up straight to land, you manoeuvre the aircraft to align the tape mark with the runway centreline. After a few flights you'll get used to what "straight" looks like and you won't need the tape any more.

[fxyz]

jschnurr, thanks for the photos! After going thought them a couple of time I got the quizzes right now. Btw, how did you manage to type up side down? They look like Russian.

I felt I was lined up with the runway the whole time. How to tell the difference?

Get a bit of sticky tape. Before you take off, line up on the runway (or use a taxiway centreline) and stick the tape at the bottom of the windshield to line up with the centre line from your point of view. Then later when you're trying to line up straight to land, you manoeuvre the aircraft to align the tape mark with the runway centreline. After a few flights you'll get used to what "straight" looks like and you won't need the tape any more.

I'm sure it will help. I'll try it tomorrow. Where did you learn all those tricks?