Landing your first Airline Job

[SaultStudent193]

Hi all, I am currently enrolled in the Aviation program at Sault College and I anticipate on graduating with about 450 hours as i already have about 180. I am wondering if anyone knows how many hours the average pilot is being hired with, by carriers such as Jazz, Sky, or georgian. The websites state anywhere from 1500-3000 hours total time with a whole wack of multi time but I'm sure the reality is much hire than 1500 hours. Does anyone have a rough idea of what the actual range is for you to even have a chance of being hired?

Please let me know!

Rob

[BE20 Driver]

Depends on market conditions. It all comes down to supply and demand. When the carriers at the top are hiring, everyone beneath them hires to replace the people they've lost. When the music stops, as can be predicted, so will the hiring at the lower levels of the career ladder. Right now, Jazz, Encore, Porter and WestJet are regularly hiring. Air Canada is sporadically hiring but will likely start again in the spring. Another 9/11 could throw a wrench in the system at any time though.

Right now, 2-3000 will get you in the door at Encore. Jazz is probably the same, but I don't work there. Big Red hasn't done much hiring lately. If they start up again, you may see those numbers at encore creep down towards the lower end of the range.

Go back a few years and the contrast is noticeable. During the recession of '08, AC stopped hiring, Jazz had a few ground schools per year. I can't remember what WestJet did that far back. I remember a period where only about 5% of the company I worked at moving on every year (i.e. we had about 75 pilots and 3-4 went up to something bigger and better every year for about 3 years). I seem to remember a couple of guys moving on to Jazz with about 4-5000 hours in their logbook.

So, here is where I sound like an old man. Enjoy the journey and don't worry about hours in your logbook. You'll get where you're going eventually. I actually pity the poor guys that go straight from college to Jazz. I've been paid to fly everywhere from the north pole to the equator, outside of north America and to places I would have never imagined at the start of my career. None of them were with what you likely would consider an airline. Sure, with the 705 world, you're likely living in a major city living the airline dream. Believe me, once you get to an airline, it becomes just a job. The things you talk about in the cockpit are usually stories of previous jobs, not the monotony and routine of the airline world.

[Mach1]

Currently 4,000 to 5,000 hours in most ground schools with some very large variations. Those numbers are falling.

And the post by BE20 is good advice.

[Inverted2]

Isn't Jazz taking 250hr wonders from Seneca and Sault College currently?

[flyinthebug]

Depends on market conditions. It all comes down to supply and demand. When the carriers at the top are hiring, everyone beneath them hires to replace the people they've lost. When the music stops, as can be predicted, so will the hiring at the lower levels of the career ladder. Right now, Jazz, Encore, Porter and WestJet are regularly hiring. Air Canada is sporadically hiring but will likely start again in the spring. Another 9/11 could throw a wrench in the system at any time though.

Right now, 2-3000 will get you in the door at Encore. Jazz is probably the same, but I don't work there. Big Red hasn't done much hiring lately. If they start up again, you may see those numbers at encore creep down towards the lower end of the range.

Go back a few years and the contrast is noticeable. During the recession of '08, AC stopped hiring, Jazz had a few ground schools per year. I can't remember what WestJet did that far back. I remember a period where only about 5% of the company I worked at moving on every year (i.e. we had about 75 pilots and 3-4 went up to something bigger and better every year for about 3 years). I seem to remember a couple of guys moving on to Jazz with about 4-5000 hours in their logbook.

So, here is where I sound like an old man. Enjoy the journey and don't worry about hours in your logbook. You'll get where you're going eventually. I actually pity the poor guys that go straight from college to Jazz. I've been paid to fly everywhere from the north pole to the equator, outside of north America and to places I would have never imagined at the start of my career. None of them were with what you likely would consider an airline. Sure, with the 705 world, you're likely living in a major city living the airline dream. Believe me, once you get to an airline, it becomes just a job. The things you talk about in the cockpit are usually stories of previous jobs, not the monotony and routine of the airline world.

Huge plus 1!! This is one of the best posts ive read for a while on here. Very well said BE20 Driver.

Your comment made me think back to a particularly beautiful day on the coast back in the 90s. I was flying a DHC2 on floats and had taken a group of 6 up to Chatterbox Falls for a 3 hour lunch/hike. As I sat on the dock admiring the beauty, a gentleman walks up to me and says wow what a beautiful old -2. Then he started asking me questions about it and we chatted for almost an hour. Turns out he was a Delta Captain living in Seattle and after about 20 minutes of chatting he said, I would give anything to trade places with you and be flying this beautiful old machine...because my airline job has become so boring. Same places, same hands OFF flying, same boring flying. He then started talking about his days on floats and flying C421s and King Airs...and how much seeing me with that plane that day made him miss the old days.

Moral of the story is...enjoy the journey to your desired goal. Often the journey to your goal is far more fun than once you arrive where you thought you wanted to be.

Good luck to you with your career...and don't forget to enjoy every step you take towards your goals as one day you will look back and remember them very fondly. For me, I loved the bush so much I never left...and 22 years in commercial aviation and im still in the bush and wouldn't trade it for the world. (Although not looking forward to dragging my ass outside this morning in the -41 we have to face today).

All the best.
Fly safe all!
FTB

[currysonic]

Isn't Jazz taking 250hr wonders from Seneca and Sault College currently?

From what I hear one or both or another (can't remember) of those schools have a good relation with Jazz and they take a number "x" of the students from best performing down. All word of mouth though.

But I'm sure what they lack in experience they more than make up in drive and willingness to learn.

[cj555]

Great posts by BE20 Driver and FTB. Thanks for the posts!

[BTD]

Good posts for sure.

Although sometimes the airline pooh poohing is a bit of hyperbole. I moved from commuters to the airlines over 3 yrs ago. I love my job now just as much as I did any of the others. But it isn't for everyone.

Best of luck.

Former soo grad.

[zulutime]

SaultStudent,

If an airline is where you want to be, (even though BE20 had some very sound advice), then put your nose to the grindstone and try to win the Jazz and or Georgian award(s). I know a student who was offered a position with both companies right out of college. If you're interested, you can find a lot of chatter on this forum from those who think offering a job to such an inexperieinced pilot of foolish. Personally, I wouldn't be bothered by those comments. The pilots I know who have gotten a job out of college are all doing very well in their curent positions.

Is Sault College close to being back on track with the flights or are they still low on instructors and avaialble aircraft?

[fish4life]

If you get on with Jazz tomorrow where are you going to get your pic experience from? It doesn't sound like jazz with have much movement over the next while.

[zulutime]

fish4life, that's a fair statement. Everyone needs to do their homework and understand what a position with one company means vrs another company and weigh the pros and cons. Nothing is straight forward.

[fish4life]

Ya its a lot easier to start with a Navajo job then get a 705 right seat than go 705 right seat to back into the bush so you can get PIC

[flyinthebug]

If you get on with Jazz tomorrow where are you going to get your pic experience from? It doesn't sound like jazz with have much movement over the next while.

You raise a valid point. I don't mean to bore anyone with another "story" but when I was CP for an op in YWG, I had a young man come into my office from Perimeter. He had 4000 hours TT...and 200 PIC. He had graduated college and got "lucky" and got the right seat in a Metro II at 250 hours. 5 years later he was knocking on my door and looking for a job on the 185 or 206 for a summer season, so he could get his PIC time and upgrade finally to the left seat. I recall his demeanour at the time, and he almost regretted his decision and his "luck" when he was forced to take 3 steps backwards to get his PIC time. Something to think about.

Just be careful what you wish for, as you could end up in the same position that young pilot did. Especially if you go to a company like Jazz...with no options to upgrade you until you get that PIC time.

My 2 cents. Fly safe all.

[LuckyPilot]

Upgrade at AC/Jazz is strictly govern on your senority, command time has nothing to do with it. I promise you, by the time you get the senority to hold command you will have the required experience for the job.

[kev994]

Upgrade at AC/Jazz is strictly govern on your senority, command time has nothing to do with it. I promise you, by the time you get the senority to hold command you will have the required experience for the job.

Only if you have an ATPL. The posts above are talking about going from no PIC to a 705 job where it's impossible to get pic without an ATPL.

[Rowdy]

Upgrade at AC/Jazz is strictly govern on your senority, command time has nothing to do with it. I promise you, by the time you get the senority to hold command you will have the required experience for the job.

Only if you have an ATPL. The posts above are talking about going from no PIC to a 705 job where it's impossible to get pic without an ATPL.

Not exactly true. Do all of your commercial hour buildup at night and 'cross country'. Boom! Done. Or like a lot of us.. rent for the few remaining hours.