Ramp Offer- Opinions?

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:45 am

Hey guys,

I am looking for some advice on a scenario. I am currently working for a small 702 company doing aerial photography. We operate 152s only and all our work is day-VFR. Our planes fly quite a bit; however, at the moment, I am sharing a plane with another pilot. I have 620 hours right now, and will have logged about 400 hours in the past 12 months. We don't operate very much in the winters either (perhaps we fly 3 times/month). I am also in the process of becoming the PRM for the company, and was involved with writing and receiving approval for our MCM.

I have received a possible offer to work the ramp for Perimeter. It's a ramp job in Thompson, MB. The wait to get upgraded to FO onto the Metro is 1 year or so. PAG has been undergoing tremendous growth lately, and I am confident that this is a company that I could spend a long time with. I have already met in person with the CP and several pilots there, and I think that my personality will mesh well with everyone. This is a company that I have been targetting for a long time as well.

So, do you guys think that it is worth it for me to leave my current job where I will see a promotion to PRM? If I stay put, I probably won't log too much time over the next 10 months, as our full-time flying ends in mid-to-late October. By winter, I would probably have another 150-200 hours if I stay where I am. By next year, I would have a little over 1000 hours.

I know that most people think it is not worth leaving a flying job for a ramp job, but I just feel that PAG is a really good company.

Any adivde/comments? Please feel free to be brutally honest.

Thanks,

Chris.

pinkus · Post by **pinkus** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:51 am

I suggest keeping the flying job...heres why!

1)You are getting Command Time (P1 time) and if you go to the green guys you will be most likely getting SIC unless your on the Beech. More PIC means faster upgrade in the end.

2)Rumour is that AC has been calling people. WJ is still hiring. There is suction coming in the industry and in the next year, people with a 1000 hr.s command will get flying jobs if they look for them.

Going to a ramp for a year at this point is useless if you are already flying. Though, the chances of you being pulled off the ramp to fill spots will be much better in the future!

Pinkus

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:51 am

Who cares about PRM, it's all about hours in your logbook.

600 hours isn't exactly a whole lot, but it's probably enough. You've got enough PIC that the ATPL won't be a problem down the road. If you think there's movement, go for it.

You've really learned all you're going to learn at your current job, it just a matter of how much time you want to build before you move on.

There is no right answer to this question.

centerstored · Post by **centerstored** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:22 pm

What kind of job are you going to get with 600 hours in a 152??? Want the truth? You'll work at your current job for a few more years, build 800 hours at best, make crap and then with 13-1400 hours of useless time apply at places like Perimeter, CMA, Calm Air etc, only to be told that you'll have to work the ramp because you don't have any multi PIC. Go put your dues in on the ramp. If the hiring starts, companies like these will lose tons of pilots and your ramp job will be much more short lived than originally thought. Look down the road. At your current job, you'll waste 2 more years building time of little value. At a ramp job, you could get left seat multi turbine in under 3 years!??

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:41 pm

personally, I would go for the ramp job with perimeter. Not that it is an easy decision. the PIC time, regardless of what others say, is valuable in the long run. Also, flying is always more fun and more rewarding that ramp work. However, the 703/704 type of experience you would get at perimeter is also very valuable despite the possible year on the ramp. the big question is are you prepared to have to spend up to a year not flying. If that is okay with you, and you are reasonably sure that you will be metro FO within a year or 14 months, then I say go for it.

-wp

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:34 am

I agree with WP. Not that 600+ hrs is disgusting amounts of time or anything. But the PIC time is there. I'm sure you could stay with this company for the rest of your life and get all the PIC time that you want. But that isn't reasonable really.

There will come a time when you have to step back from the command position to step ahead overall. You have a sufficient amount of PIC why not make that step now?

Single engine time qualifies you to fly single engine airplanes. Thats why everyone wants multi time before you apply to them to fly multi. Makes sense.

As was previously stated though, there is no right or wrong answer to this. JMO

BTD

flyinthebug · Post by **flyinthebug** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:23 am

Chris... The only thing to be careful of is not getting "stuck" in the right seat. If you dont have enough PIC time when upgrade time comes, you`ll be out looking for a 185 job after 2 years in the right seat of the tube. This happened to a couple of guys I knew from Perimeter. They ended up knocking on my door hoping for a float job or ANY job that would offer them a few hundred hours of PIC time so perimeter could upgrade them. They are a good company and treat their employees well, but they do have a habit of hiring low timers for the right seat then when it comes time to upgrade, they tell you to go get some PIC time somewhere. Have you considered asking the CP if you currently have enough PIC time for the company to consider you for upgrade when the time comes? What his opinion is? You`d be surprised how many CP`s will sit down with a potential employee and discuss these matters without any raised eyebrows. All in all, Perimeter would be your best bet.. Im just addressing your upgrade issues if/when the time comes.
Best of luck to you whatever you decide.
Fly safe, Cheers

giligan · Post by **giligan** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:22 am

Actually, Perimeter does upgrade to Captain without PIC time. It's all about the way you fly THE METRO not the cessna 206. The people you were speaking about were in the right seat because of the industry, not because Perimeter wouldn't upgrade them. Between 2001 and 2004 Perimeter probably hired 5 Pilots for the Metro. There were lots of people sitting in the right seat for 3 years with loads of PIC. That's all done now. Since April of this year they have hired 20. C-HRIS, Just go already. You'll be seeing the aircraft before you know it.
giligan

Kurwa · Post by **Kurwa** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:46 am

Go! You know I know where you're at, and I wasted far too much time there, so go! If the line up from the ramp looks good and the green machine has no qualms about your time for upgrade, then go. I've heard many good things from people who've worked there.

Good luck man!

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:10 am

Edited due to a wonderful surgery, removing my foot from my mouth.

-=0=LIR=0=-

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:50 am

LostinRotation wrote:
If your going to help, great, but becareful of what you say.

You should heed your own advice - the ATPL isn't required to go captain on the Metro II.

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:06 pm

Then I stand corrected and offer my appologies.

I was under the understanding it was, and didn't want him to make a descision under false pretences like so many of us have done.
Maybe atlest this thread may give him a few reasons to make a list of questions to ask them before he accepts or rejects the offer. Best to get the info from the hoses mouth I suppose...tnx for the catch Stu and the pm Giligan

-=0=LIR=0=-

giligan · Post by **giligan** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:00 pm

Of course Disco Stu would respond to something about not needing an ATPL for the tube. He's running out of better places to spend the 300 bucks.

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:03 am

(shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh)

JBI · Post by **JBI** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:55 am

Things may be different now that the industry is picking up, but I had a number of friends who did the aerial photography thing. Have a couple thousand single engine PIC hours and have had a really tough time finding another job, however, after Skyward went under, a number of guys with less than 1000 hours of right seat turbine time had a much easier time finding employment. Although the ramp sucks, getting on right seat at Perimeter would really be a great thing for your career.

Overall I've heard good things about the company, except for the fact that you may have to fly with Capt SnJ.

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:15 am

Thanks to everyone who responded. I really appreciate your insight and honesty. I have accepted the offer with PAG, and I will be leaving within 2 weeks. By the time I leave, I will have 660+ hours, with all the PIC requirements (except night X/C) for the ATP. It will be tough to leave the best city in Canada (i.e. YXU

), but I am looking forward to the adventures up in YTH and YWG. This past year I have logged about 450 hours on the 152 with my current job, and if I stayed put, it would have been similar for this year, so I just feel that I could be farther ahead at PAG. Plus, I am going to one of the best company's in Canada

Thanks again, and good luck to everyone!

Chris.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:12 am

K'I've your old job??

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:44 am

I probably won't be getting replaced for a while, as the other pilot will be picking up my work schedule.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:37 am

Congrats on the job.

In order to help you prepare for the next step, surviving until the flying positition, find a mailing address for your stuff. Probably something like: Stores, PAL, Box 123 YTH, Man Attn some avcanada guy

Gather up all the stuff you think you might need for the winter (6 weeks away!) that is light.
Blankets, pillows all that house stuff.
Kraft Dinner, drygoods and canned stuff.
Get Rubbermaid roughneck storage boxes, the 68 l size from Canadian Tire.
Drill holes every 20 cm around the rim.
Place all your crap in the boxes.
Place lid back on.
Put Tie-wraps through the holes.
Duct-tape the edges.
Mail it to yourself. Do not let the lazy bastards at the post office try to tell you you cannot do this. Everyone who lives up north for more than a couple months does this, at least the savvy ones.

Save yourself a bundle compared to Northern prices.

Buy the groceries in Winnipeg.
Track down a store near the YWG airport, and arrange to have one "go-to guy" to contact via fax or email to arrrange regular grocery orders to go up via company.
Send the empty boxes south on the sked to get re-filled. send tie-wraps with the boxes

Get a ramp rat from the WPG base tell you what you need for the ramp. Slotted screwdriver, leatherman, and a collection of windproof clothes as well as lots of work gloves come to mind. Mark's work wearhouse 'll be your best bet. Or PM jet a1 who now has a fair idea of what the successful ramp rat needs to have on hand.

And by the way, it's a ramp rat job not a ramp position. Don't try to attach any dignity to the position. There is none. But, 20 years from now...

JBI · Post by **JBI** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:08 pm

JC, good post.

Luckily in YTH, the food prices weren't much more expensive than YWG (if at all). As well, there's a Mark's work wearhouse right in town accross the parking lot from the Mall. That's decent place to pick up a Snow Goose. I think as long as you stuff your car full of stuff, you should be good.

Go Guns · Post by **Go Guns** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:57 pm

Yeah, I just showed up with what I could fit in my Sunbird. WalMart is there, it's a community of 15,000 people so folks are always getting rid of furniture. When I left 3 1/2 years later, I almost couldn't find people to give all my stuff away to. The price difference between Winnipeg and Thompson is very small, I wouldn't worry about it.

loadshed · Post by **loadshed** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:06 am

Greyhound is another cheap way to send all of your crap from down south to thompson.....rates are pretty good and usually arrive quickly. Used them to move most of my stuff in and out of yth.

High Flight · Post by **High Flight** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:33 pm

Go to Perimeter!! Those guys are right... If you can get on with a company with 200 hrs and only work one year to get on the metro than do it! Pic hrs are good but when they see your log book and the fact that all of them are 152 time then they may not be as valued. Perimeter will also find other ways for you to get PIC and all I ever hear is good stuff about them.. CP is a great guy, talk to him about it.

balls · Post by **balls** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:55 pm

Did you start flying because you like flying?

Why stop at the ramp? That sucks in comparsion to the option.

If you want a flying "related" job, become a flight attendant. The pay is better, and the working conditions are better than most flying jobs, including the entry jobs, at AC. You can then bitch and complain about the company and the industry, and how badly you are treated. You can demand the respect of your peers that you have as much responsibility in your job as bag smasher, fueler, or pilot. Oh, but did you really want to be a pilot someone might ask!!

Fly if you want to fly. Be willing to go to places that no one else wants to go to. Volunteer in Africa. Look at Viet Nam or China.

If you want to live in a big city and be comfortable, work on the ramp and suck it up - for a long time. If you want to fly, keep flying an keep looking for the next leg up.

Pith Helmet · Post by **Pith Helmet** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:41 pm

Go Guns wrote: When I left 3 1/2 years later, I almost couldn't find people to give all my stuff away to.

C'mon, you had no problem finding certain yokels to grab your stuff...