Reviewing with non-instructor pilot

[Blueontop]

I am looking for some feedback regarding a student pilot receiving what amounts to instruction from a pilot who has never held on instructor rating. The student is receiving dual instruction from a certified flight instructor however is going up for review flights with a non-instructor pilot in an effort to save money. My inclination on this is that it is not a good idea for several reasons, such as the lack of supervision, the transfer of bad habits/information and the non-instructor pilot has never had any formal training in giving dual instruction. I would also like to hear if anyone believes this may have some merit to it.

[Cat Driver]

Good question.

Like everything in life it depends on who is doing the teaching.

My son owns an excavator company and he teaches people how to operate excavators which are more complex to operate than a simple training aircraft....and he does not have an excavator instructors license.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am looking for some feedback regarding a student pilot receiving what amounts to instruction from a pilot who has never held on instructor rating. The student is receiving dual instruction from a certified flight instructor however is going up for review flights with a non-instructor pilot in an effort to save money. My inclination on this is that it is not a good idea for several reasons, such as the lack of supervision, the transfer of bad habits/information and the non-instructor pilot has never had any formal training in giving dual instruction. I would also like to hear if anyone believes this may have some merit to it.

I did a version of this once. However the non-instructor was the father of the student and the flights were in the fathers airplane. He was also someone I knew well and a very experienced commercial pilot. We discussed the "what" and "how" for everything he did and the father was careful not to contradict what I told the student to do.

In the end flying with the father petered out as the sons training progressed. One factor was the father son dynamic but another one was a realization on the fathers part that ab initio instruction is actually pretty hard to do well and a gazillion hours flying complex aircraft does not necessarily provide all the skill sets to effectively teach the basics.

Another time I was shocked to go flying with a PPL student of mine who all of a sudden was doing some pretty bad things. So I asked him what had come over him and he said that he had done a bunch of flying with a buddy while I was away on holidays and he was doing what buddy had told him. At that point I gave him an ultimatum. He can fly with me or with buddy, but not both. If he wanted to continue to fly with buddy I was going to hand him over to another instructor at the school, which is what happened. 70 ish hours and 2 failed flight tests later, he got his PPL......

[photofly]

I think whether it helps or not depends on the student as much as the would-be instructor. A good student can make a lot out of the opportunity of flying outside the FTU environment.

[stol701]

I agree with photofly... Even though it's a student he or she is already a pilot. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and consider them fully capable of distinguishing or researching what is good, what is bad, and what they chose to accept. I think exposure to flying is always beneficial.

[stol701]

... as long as they don't log the hours as "dual" (or I guess log them at all)

[ahramin]

We've got a guy like that around here. Owns a 1/2 a C150, is working on his licence, most of his flying time is with whatever pilot is around that day when he wants to go flying. I don't see anything wrong with it but I do limit myself to one or two comments per flight and let him basically just practice flying. In some ways it's a waste of what should be PIC solo time, in other ways it's an excellent way to expose him to a lot more flying than a student would normally see.

If a student isn't in a hurry to get their licence, and the instructor is still diligently covering all the required material, and the non instructor pilots understand that they aren't instructors, it sounds like a good idea to me.

[Shiny Side Up]

Good question.

Like everything in life it depends on who is doing the teaching.

My son owns an excavator company and he teaches people how to operate excavators which are more complex to operate than a simple training aircraft....and he does not have an excavator instructors license.

I got to call BS Cat, excavators are easy to learn, you can do it yourself in an afternoon. Especially these days, they're practically idiot proof. Now being able to be reasonably productive in one, that's a different story. You're also unlikely to hurt yourself in the process - other people just have to watch out. Now, if you were talking about something with live draw-works...

[fleetcanuck]

I would much rather go flying than do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBMUvAUPTGM

[Shiny Side Up]

I would much rather go flying than do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBMUvAUPTGM

Oh sure, but while its scary, its not especially hard to do.

[Shiny Side Up]

I think whether it helps or not depends on the student as much as the would-be instructor. A good student can make a lot out of the opportunity of flying outside the FTU environment.

I would say this is the key. I've seen lots of horror stories like BPF's, but I don't doubt that there's room to learn and improve if done right. The problem is that there's a lot of variation of licensed pilots so the probability that a student is going to find a good non-instructor partner to learn from is low. I would, in most instances, recommend against it. As an instructor, in most of the cases I've dealt with its been problematic.

[PilotDAR]

Many "could be", and "it depends" with this. There are non instructor pilots who have skills which are virtually non existent in the instructor population. However, most of these skills are not needed nor beneficial to a student pilot (like type or operation specific "training"). That is probably a post PPL activity. As for the basic piloting skills, being "mentored" by a non instructor, I'm 50/50 on whether that's a good idea or not. I've seen some mis information, and show off get these "teams" in trouble.

At the very least, if this is happening, the instructor should be told, so they can assess the situation.

[photofly]

You do sometimes have to credit students with the intelligence to say to themselves something like "the way this guy flies is a fine illustration of how not to do it". Seeing someone doing stuff not-very-well can be an education too.

[PilotDAR]

say to themselves something like "the way this guy flies is a fine illustration of how not to do it". Seeing someone doing stuff not-very-well can be an education too.

Except a student pilot, particularly of little experience, is less likely to assert themselves, or "take away" a good "education" if they have (perhaps misplaced) faith in the other pilot being "good".

I'm all for appropriate mentoring, but on this, I'm not universally sold....

[Cat Driver]

After thinking some more on this subject I think it is better for a new PPL pilot to get through the PPL training with licensed flight instructors.

Once they have jumped through all the hoops and received their PPL they can fly with anyone they wish to fly with and if they learn some valuable skills or knowledge from non rated instructors all is good.

[fxyz]

My roommate got her license at another school and I fly with her regularly while doing my ppl. I noticed a lot of things that she did differently but always ask my instructor first before doing it myself. My instructor encourages it and was able to turn those into interesting learning experiences ever time. As a student pilot, I think it's ok to fly with other pilots but a discussion with the instructor is mandatory.

[Blueontop]

I agree with photofly... Even though it's a student he or she is already a pilot. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and consider them fully capable of distinguishing or researching what is good, what is bad, and what they chose to accept. I think exposure to flying is always beneficial.

I think I have to disagree with that statement. First, I would not give a student who does not even hold a student permit the title of pilot. That's is why they are called student pilots and because of this they lack the experience to be able to distinguish between good or bad information.

The feedback received so far has been useful and after contemplating them I am still feeling my original hesitations are correct. I do agree that exposure to flying is always beneficial but with ab initio training it is best to stick to one teaching style as to not confuse and/or frustrate the student. And in this situation there is the very real possibility that bad info/habits can transferred to the student in this time when a solid foundation needs to be built. The insidious aspect of this is that the student won't even realize that it's happening. I agree that post PPL it is good to fly with other instructors or even other pilots to get different perspectives of flying because the new pilot is in a better position to distinguish between good and bad information.

[Cat Driver]

Good decision!

Once you have a license you then find pilots with the most experience in the type of flying you want to become proficient at. And do research on their background and teaching abilities...which is not very hard to do.

These pilots do not need an instructors license to teach you new skills.

There are many, many of us out here who let our instructors ratings lapse because we no longer had need for it, ( mine expired in 1965. ) so not only do we understand how to instruct we have had a life time of learning how to fly in many different areas of aviation.

[New_PIC]

I finished my PPL last year but started about 30 years ago. By the time I got to the flight test, I'd flown with 5 different instructors (and just over 50 hours logged). They were all different in one aspect or another and I learned early on to take everything "with a grain of salt". In other words, trust in the instruction but be open to alternate ideas and, if later presented with something different, consider it, try it, and decide what works best for me.

I also had an opportunity early on to fly with a non-instructor family friend. However, he wasn't trying to instruct. On a long cross-country flight into the States, I got to watch, listen, and act as a voice programmable auto-pilot. I'm pretty sure those un-logged hours helped a lot too.

Extra hours with a non-instructor may not be the most efficient way to learn but, if a student considers the sources and thinks about what's done in relation to the official lessons, I think it should be beneficial. However, what I think is based on very little experience so, again, consider your sources.

[stol701]

I don't think there is a problem with student pilots who are not assertive or can't think for themselves as those would not go search this type of opportunities. It is only a relatively self-confident and independent person that would experiment in this way and they'll have what it takes to make the good v.s. shabby call.

[ahramin]

Ok here is a situation for the "against" crowd to comment on. Student pilot owns her own C150, has 50 hours but isn't finished the licence yet. Wants to do a flight beyond her comfort level due to airspace and terrain, instructor agrees but isn't available to come with. So an experienced non instructor pilot sits in the right seat and goes along to provide advice.

Good or bad?

[Shiny Side Up]

Ok here is a situation for the "against" crowd to comment on. Student pilot owns her own C150, has 50 hours but isn't finished the licence yet. Wants to do a flight beyond her comfort level due to airspace and terrain, instructor agrees but isn't available to come with. So an experienced non instructor pilot sits in the right seat and goes along to provide advice.

Good or bad?

Bad. Very bad, on so many levels. Many questions arise.

First issue: Who's PIC? SPP holders can't carry passengers, 'nuff said. Does this student pilot start a long road at this point with the confusion of what PIC and solo mean? At the very least they're setting themselves up for a licensing paperwork nightmare, at the worst I've seen where some pilots don't know what it means to really operate an airplane by themselves. To disasterous effect.

Second: Is this flight necessary for the license? Anyone wonder why the average time is so high for PPLs? Get your license, then you can do all these trips you want. The reason you're probably not comfortable doing a trip like this IS THAT YOU'RE NOT FINISHED YOUR TRAINING.

Third: Is our "ringer" going along on this trip intended to take action if the student does something wrong? Here's a small thing that a lot of non-instructors don't know, or have forgotten about - and to be honest a lot of instructors forget to stress it too - the "I have control, you have control" routine. Who can initiate it. How it happens. If something goes wrong, there's nothing worse than fighting someone else for control of the airplane.

Last: Why isn't this student licensed already? Lots of possibilities, the two items above are contributing issues, but not the only ones. For some reason instructors have a bad time saying no to their student's bad ideas. Really tough when the student owns the plane I know, but you still got to stand your ground.

Now with that all in mind, I think there is potential for students to learn from already licensed pilots of a variety of levels if its approached the right way. It should be approached as an opportunity to learn, not as a means to circumvent normal training, or as replacement for it. Often one might learn somewhat tangental (but interesting and sometimes useful) information, or in some cases what's beyond your comfort level.

[stol701]

It should be approached as an opportunity to learn, not as a means to circumvent normal training, or as replacement for it.

That's true. So I take back my last post... It is not only relatively self-confident people. Stingy people can initiate something like this too and then it is very bad.

[PilotDAR]

Ok here is a situation for the "against" crowd to comment on. Student pilot owns her own C150, has 50 hours but isn't finished the licence yet. Wants to do a flight beyond her comfort level due to airspace and terrain, instructor agrees but isn't available to come with. So an experienced non instructor pilot sits in the right seat and goes along to provide advice.

I second SSU's points.

To clarify, Instructor should not agree, if they are not there to supervise the student - they cannot delegate that duty to the other pilot.

The student "wants" to do a flight...."? I "want" to do some flights... Some I wisely choose not to attempt - simply because they are beyond my comfort level. We all have to be mature, it's part of pilot discipline. Perhaps she "wants" to get somewhere, or see a sight... Okay, assign the other pilot PIC, left seat. She can go as a passenger, and perhaps learn some things along the way, within the intent of the regulations. Oh, other pilot is not competent/qualified/on the insurance? Then what were they going to do from the right seat anyway?

I have flown with a number of "pilots" who were surprisingly not capable from flying safely from the right side, probably worse if things were going wrong.

[Shiny Side Up]

She can go as a passenger

This is an important thing for many pilots to realise and learn it early in their flight training experience. Sometimes you're a passenger. You can learn from the experience, but there's no substitute for hands on the stick, and certainly no substitute for being PIC. That's why there's such a premium on it. I hate to say it but if you're a pilot and you're need the help of a passenger, especially you're possibly counting on said passenger to take their own initiative when to intervene, you're not suitable to bear the mantle of PIC. Students should be encouraged from early on not to cheapen their PIC time.

It should be also said that if you're a pilot who goes along as a passenger, for the most part, sit smile and shut up unless specifically asked to do stuff, which hopefully will be of minor consequence. If you have to do more than that, you made a really bad choice of who to be a passenger with.