Porter - Two smoke related diversions.

[WhiskeyWhiskey]

1) http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/t ... -1.2885045

2) http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/p ... -1.2885113

[WhiskeyWhiskey]

Wouldn't it be normal procedure to evacuate first... Examine later? Thinking SAUDIA 163...

[GyvAir]

I wondered about there being passengers still on board to take that photo as well.

[4fifty8]

Evacuations are pretty much guaranteed to at least injury one or multiple people. Some people have been killed in evacuations. You can't be trigger happy with ordering an evacuation - in these circumstances, you need to assess the situation by getting other people's input first (FAs, tower controllers, fire rescue, etc.).

[fish4life]

Evacuations are pretty much guaranteed to at least injury one or multiple people. Some people have been killed in evacuations. You can't be trigger happy with ordering an evacuation - in these circumstances, you need to assess the situation by getting other people's input first (FAs, tower controllers, fire rescue, etc.).

More people have died because of a slow initiated evacuation than one that was initiated immediately. That smoke might be 10 seconds away from flames tearing through the cabin.

[Kokanee]

WOW, why didnt they evacuate?

The few "Injuries" from an evacuation is better then a flash fire tearing through the cabin. What would you rather have, a couple cuts or a broken arm, which heals in a matter of months with no after effect. Or possibly severe burns that will leave scars and or disfigurment for life.

Smoke in plane, Get ON GROUND, STOP PLANE, EVACUATE ASAP.

[flyer 1492]

Worse case, how about a RAPID DEPLANEMENT...

[Bede]

Nice to see the Monday morning quarterbacks out...

[Donald]

Nice job by the Porter crew.

Clearly no smoke or fire in the pic, but the firefighters are doing a check anyway as that is the most conservative course of action.

Emergencies can be cancelled when the hazardous condition no longer exists.

And people would evacuate for this?

[Jack Klumpus]

Most of the injuries associated with evacuations are due to the slides. The Q400 doesn't have slides as it's nose is closer to the ground. It's door (stairs) are what is used in case of an evacuation.

Every situation is different, you don't just pull a trigger for an evacuation each and every scenario.

Job well done for the crew.

[GyvAir]

Yes, the variables are infinite with smoke in the cabin situations. I imagine a lot of the time it's catch 22 as to exactly what protocol to follow. Certainly, no matter what the crew did, there would be someone here to say they made the wrong call.
My thinking on wondering about leaving the passengers on board while firefighting personnel investigate is that if the situation develops to where the fire crews have to take action, the passengers are going to be in the road and there is likely going to be an even greater panic evacuation than if passengers were asked to de-plane carefully once the aircraft came to a stop.
The flip side of that of course, is that during the time it took for all the passengers to grab their carry-on (we all know they will) and exit the plane, a minor fire that could be dealt with in a few seconds by fire crews could erupt into a major fire, also sparking the passenger stampede reflex.

As far as there being clearly no smoke in the cabin, based on that photo… really? That is one poor quality photo, to say the least. I stepped out into the hallway of an apartment building the other day where someone in another unit was burning their casserole, dish and all, from the smell of it. The smoke was barely visible, if at all, but we could barely breathe and my eyes were smarting for half an hour after that 1 minute exposure.

But, back to what actually transpired:

FLIGHT PD539
On Sunday evening, a Porter flight bound for Sudbury, Ont., with 74 passengers aboard also had to return to Toronto because of smoke inside the plane. Radio-Canada reporter Mireille Langlois was on board, and tweeted a photo of emergency crews boarding the plane.
Cicero says the flight crew shut down one of the Dash 8-400’s two engines, according to standard procedure, and landed safely at Toronto’s Pearson International Airport. He says two passengers were seen by medical staff for suspected anxiety, and two flight attendants were also examined as a precaution.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tor ... e22224359/

So, it sounds like the issue was identified and resolved long before they landed anyway. Emergency personnel would be on board at that point to check for anybody requiring medical assistance.

[Donald]

According to the cadors, which contain preliminary data and are subject to change:

Occurrence Summary
Date Entered:2014-12-29
Narrative:
A Porter Airlines de Havilland DHC 8 402 (C-GLQD/ POE539) from Toronto/ Billy Bishop, ON (CYTZ) to Sudbury, ON (CYSB) declared an emergency at 0113Z, citing smoke in the cockpit and passenger area. Requested re-route to Toronto, ON (CYYZ). One engine shut down. Aircraft rescue and fire fighting (ARFF) advised. POE539 landed Runway 23 at 0132Z. Passengers evacuated on the runway. Transportation Safety Board (TSB) advised.
O.P.I.: Further Action Required:No

Edit to add: good job to the Porter crew!

[GyvAir]

Interesting to see that they still ultimately evacuated on the runway, according to that.
Why not just tow them to a gate or something?

[Donald]

Impressive how you've gone from questioning the lack of an evacuation or timely removal of passengers, to questioning the evacuation. Any other parts of this event you wish to question?

[GyvAir]

Relax.. it's a conversation, not a questioning. I'm referring to evacuating on the runway after the danger had apparently been cleared. Why not just clear the runway by towing the aircraft and passengers to a gate at that point?

[teacher]

Fire is out, smoke not seen by fire and rescue services evacuation not required. Maybe a rapid deplanemeant through the main door. But having people jump out the windows in a dash for no reason is not wise.

[Jack Klumpus]

Fire is out, smoke not seen by fire and rescue services evacuation not required. Maybe a rapid deplanemeant through the main door. But having people jump out the windows in a dash for no reason is not wise.

Which window would the pax jump out of exactly?

[KK7]

Fire is out, smoke not seen by fire and rescue services evacuation not required. Maybe a rapid deplanemeant through the main door. But having people jump out the windows in a dash for no reason is not wise.

Which window would the pax jump out of exactly?

Probably referring to the R1 emergency exit.

I too was wondering why there would be firefighters on board the aircraft without at least a rapid deplanement. I also hesitate to do a full on evacuation without positive identification of a source of fire. However, as the CADORs states they did apparently exit the aircraft on the runway.

All this being said we just don't know enough about what happened, or what they actually did to really judge.

[pdw]

Well and then again maybe can think of something .... eh ? (two in one day ... wow)

Why not just clear the runway by towing the aircraft and passengers to a gate at that point?

Umm ... to let any uninvited guests (the non paying kind) escape into the grass instead of the terminal ?

Was very warm / still balmy ... late Saturday night. Lots of waves around the island shoreline in fairly high winds could have more-easily disrupted any mouse-nesting areas ... perhaps some already displaced earlier in the season by all the construction (new float docks etc). Or, who even knows exactly if/when/how they would crawl up a gearleg and into an exposed engine compartment ... getting in there if-there's-a-way thru a tiny intake opportunity; ... so ... it must be a suspect at least, No ? .. given the steady cooling trend Sunday morning and some of us having witnessed just what those skinny little critters are capable of in their quest for the warmer environments ?

[GyvAir]

pdw, you're a gift that just keeps on giving! Happy New Year!

Yes, yes, I think a rodent smoldering in a bleed air line could be sufficient to cause any pilot to divert to the nearest suitable landing place.

[#37]

PDW

[pdw]

Where an intruder is suspected, a Ketch All positioned near or under smaller garbage containers is simple/reliable. Some peanut butter dropped inside the box and also on the trip plate inside the trap channel is a trick that will get even the sharpest specimen(s) every time, .. and being careful not to wind it up too much (keeping it wound just enough). I've released three at one time but it holds a few more. When just storing one of these devices, it is a 'must' to leave them open (the lid must be off when in storage). It is very easy to keep clean as well as checking them daily for any occupants (DO NOT FORGET !). And if needed ... find a volunteer to set them free in the back forty. Mouse control in this setting is EVERYBODY's business !

Fresh peanut butter always works best because its powerful flavour travels around corners along/ into crevaces etc , an unresistable attraction for the most stubborn catches. They retreat from heat sources/ noises, and so any smells from plastics/papers they displace might be difficult to ID. There's a large number of other options to employ for prevention ... well ahead of time, but to expedite defence against suspected invasion into this type senstive area ... has to be asap, reliable, and safe.

(EDIT: re Mouse 101: Diverting because of the smoke is a bit frightening, but just saying here .. anyone who is frightened by little rodents ... is still better to be involved in catching them so they don't risk causing smoke. Just showed that method so anyone who is frightened by them can understand how it's possible to catchand not even get close ...while preventing the other. They're usually only on-the-move at night anuyway.)

[TeePeeCreeper]

^ From smoke related diversions to mouse catching 101.

The wildest thread drift I have seen this year!

[Donald]

Incident: Porter DH8D near Toronto on Dec 28th 2014, propeller overspeed and smoke in cockpit

By Simon Hradecky, created Wednesday, Dec 31st 2014 15:37Z, last updated Wednesday, Dec 31st 2014 15:37Z
A Porter Airlines de Havilland Dash 8-400, registration C-GLQD performing flight PD-539 from Toronto City,ON to Sudbury,ON (Canada) with 78 people on board, was climbing through FL190 out of Toronto when the flight crew noticed smoke on the flight deck, donned their oxygen masks, declared emergency and worked the smoke drill. The captain was unable to communicate with the first officer using the face mask microphone. The captain noticed that the right hand propeller was indicating an overspeed condition, worked the related checklist and shut the right hand engine (PW150) down. The forward outflow valve was opened, the smoke began to dissipate. The crew decided to divert to Toronto's International Airport where the aircraft landed safely on runway 23, the left hand engine was shut down and the APU started. The passengers disembarked rapidly onto the runway and were bussed to the terminal.

The Canadian TSB reported that the smoke was limited to the cockpit, there was no smoke in the cabin. Maintenance determined an internal failure of the right hand engine contaminated the pressure and climate control system for the cockpit.

Sorry, nothing about mice.

[Canoehead]

Interesting scenario, although the "maintenance finding" sounds overly simplified to me.
Jazz had a similar incident in the summer that had smoke in the cabin, but not in the flight deck. That crew also had issues communicating with the mask on (determined later to be improper crew operation of the mask/audio system). It was also due to an engine problem; oil into the bleed system because of a faulty seal I believe.

Is it standard procedure at PD to start the APU if you are going to deplane rapidly?