Congratulations Jazz

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

rudder wrote:Some would call it 'concessions', others would call it 'change'. Either way, status quo will not prevail for the CPA between CHR and AC nor will status quo prevail in the collective agreements in force at Jazz.

I would guess that AC expects a degree of cost change at Jazz that mirrors what has transpired at the mainline. There are different ways to skin the cat but the cat will have to be skinned in order for AC to commit to extending the commercial relationship including fleet substitutions.

Nobody knows if this order is part of that discussion but it would not be a surprise. Nor would an announcement of conversion of the remaining 9 outstanding Q400 options that belong to CHR. It is entirely possible that in 5 years Jazz will only be operating aircraft configured at 74/75 seats. The resulting increased efficiency and corresponding unit cost reduction would be significant.
Sure call it change....but no pilot should accept any change less than current! Jazz pilots will not join the race to the bottom!
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Splash
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by Splash »

TrailerParkBoy wrote:
rudder wrote:Some would call it 'concessions', others would call it 'change'. Either way, status quo will not prevail for the CPA between CHR and AC nor will status quo prevail in the collective agreements in force at Jazz.

I would guess that AC expects a degree of cost change at Jazz that mirrors what has transpired at the mainline. There are different ways to skin the cat but the cat will have to be skinned in order for AC to commit to extending the commercial relationship including fleet substitutions.

Nobody knows if this order is part of that discussion but it would not be a surprise. Nor would an announcement of conversion of the remaining 9 outstanding Q400 options that belong to CHR. It is entirely possible that in 5 years Jazz will only be operating aircraft configured at 74/75 seats. The resulting increased efficiency and corresponding unit cost reduction would be significant.
Sure call it change....but no pilot should accept any change less than current! Jazz pilots will not join the race to the bottom!
You make a point,the same one the pilots at Comair and Eagle made. The result;Comair gone,Eagle just accepted concessions after throwing themselves on the sword out of principle.
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rudder
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by rudder »

Like I said - there are different ways to skin the cat.

Getting a measurable reduction in gross block hour cost and CASM can be achieved through a combination of means which will include expanding the list of CPA pass through costs that will not be subject to markup, adjusting the CPA markup, maintaining CPA ASM capacity but decreasing airframes via fleet substitution and relative up-gauging, and examining go forward labour expense with a view to creating a declining trend over time.

If the conversations that are alleged to be taking place are substantive and sincere, then I suspect that these and many other factors are being examined.
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DH772
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by DH772 »

For those Jazz pilots...do not take concessions what-so-ever for the next contract. If AC needs more regional flying, they know who to hire! Neither Sky Regional, nor Georgian, nor any new start up, can complete the increased flying AC has planned to be an International player!
Care to elborate? Sky managed to get their fleet of 20 up and running. I'm not saying it wasn't without struggle. If 24 CRJ are bound to SKY, it will be quite lucrative for junior, lower time Pilots to join a company with 39 jets offering quick upgrades. 24 jets at Jazz won't offer a huge change for a new hire with Jazz's current list. Not unless Jazz manages a flow through program.

I'm not bashing Jazz, I just think you are mistaken if you think Jazz is the only regional that can handle a growth of 24 crj's. Encore has shown us quite easily how you can attract pilots on a garbage contract with the right incentives. If these are bound for Jazz (which I hope they are), they won't be handed to Jazz easily. There will be some negots ahead. if Jazz is getting a fleet renewal it won't be on a 1 for 1 basis.


I will give credit to you and won't remark on GGN. Enough said on that mess.
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rudder
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by rudder »

DH772 wrote:
Care to elborate? Sky managed to get their fleet of 20 up and running. I'm not saying it wasn't without struggle. If 24 CRJ are bound to SKY, it will be quite lucrative for junior, lower time Pilots to join a company with 39 jets offering quick upgrades. 24 jets at Jazz won't offer a huge change for a new hire with Jazz's current list. Not unless Jazz manages a flow through program.

I'm not bashing Jazz, I just think you are mistaken if you think Jazz is the only regional that can handle a growth of 24 crj's. Encore has shown us quite easily how you can attract pilots on a garbage contract with the right incentives. If these are bound for Jazz (which I hope they are), they won't be handed to Jazz easily. There will be some negots ahead. if Jazz is getting a fleet renewal it won't be on a 1 for 1 basis.


I will give credit to you and won't remark on GGN. Enough said on that mess.
SKY EMB crews are flying to the CAR's flight time limits due to attrition. Not sure that you could add any more revenue flying and reasonably expect it to be staffed unless a significant number of Jazz pilots were willing to quit and move to SKY.

Single biggest limiting factor for ANYBODY that operates commercial aircraft as a business in the next few years will be the ability to source pilots. And Jazz has the second largest pool of pilots in Canada.

You are wrong - Jazz is in fact the only CPA carrier that could spool up 24 aircraft in short order, particularly if done on a substitution basis. Having said that, it is more likely that the evolution of AC Express to larger fleets of 75 seat jets and props will occur over a 2-5 year time frame.

Whatever direction this is all going to take is going to reveal itself in the not too distant future.
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DH772
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by DH772 »

That's your opinion but if you have your head in the sand that deep that your convinced Jazz is the only carrier able to undertake this than you sincerely think far too highly of yourself. Just look at Encore. They managed and they have a carrot to dangle.

Edited. Yes on a subsitution basis (ex 2 for 1) Jazz can easily handle said aircrafts. I was referring to pure expansion
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teacher
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by teacher »

Can other companies "handle" it? Probably. But which one of them could do it with little to no issues and with the littlest headache to AC? Jazz has proven several times already that it can spool up changes to it's operation very quick whether it be IROPS or fleet changes. More expensive? Yes. But you get what you pay for.
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DH772
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by DH772 »

Oh I completely agree. I don't think anyone is questioning which company is "best" suited for the job.
From a business perspective though would the BOD see it the same way?
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teacher
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by teacher »

Not sure. I don't have access to the true costs of the other CPA providers. It's not only about seat mile costs. When flights are cancelled, passengers stranded and recovery from IROPS or mechanical issues takes longer how much does that cost? Stuff happens and so do bad days but at what time do you consider the cost savings of a quality product?

Wouldn't it be funny though if this order was from another airline not even in Canada?
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rudder
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by rudder »

DH772 wrote:That's your opinion but if you have your head in the sand that deep that your convinced Jazz is the only carrier able to undertake this than you sincerely think far too highly of yourself. Just look at Encore. They managed and they have a carrot to dangle.

Edited. Yes on a subsitution basis (ex 2 for 1) Jazz can easily handle said aircrafts. I was referring to pure expansion
Prospective GGN DEC are rumoured to be setting their own individual pay deals.

SKY has left seat attrition rates that are unprecedented.

Encore had to offer WJ seniority numbers to attract enough pilots to fly the planned Q400 expansion.

Jazz accommodated expansion post CCAA that was almost unprecedented. Jazz added an international large aircraft operation from concept to reality in less than 9 months. Jazz just runs day in day out with some of the best operational metrics in Canada. Not an opinion, just fact.

Now back to the original thread.......
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Splash
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by Splash »

[/quote]

Having said that, it is more likely that the evolution of AC Express to larger fleets of 75 seat jets and props will occur over a 2-5 year time frame.

Whatever direction this is all going to take is going to reveal itself in the not too distant future.[/quote]

I think we can all agree on that. For Jazz,I simply see a fleet upgauge/downsize with a contract extension.
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Radiocaster
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by Radiocaster »

The last 8 years had showed me that when an aircraft buyer is anonymous, it always some asian startup that doesn't want the competition to ramp up their fleet at the same pace. That said, I agree with most of you guys. I see a upgage with a decrease of airframes at Jazz in the near future. Let's just hope that this new year will be a good one.
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

Geez guys, nice to be thinking positively, but this order could be from Garuda Indonesia or Iraqi Airways for all you know!

A whole thread dedicated to arguing over which AC CPA provider is better suited to operated the new RJs that might not even be for AC.
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Stinky
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by Stinky »

Joe Blow Schmo wrote:Geez guys, nice to be thinking positively, but this order could be from Garuda Indonesia or Iraqi Airways for all you know!

A whole thread dedicated to arguing over which AC CPA provider is better suited to operated the new RJs that might not even be for AC.
Very true, although the size and timing of the order seem to be a perfect fit.

Either way, fleet renewal is going to happen. What it will be and who will operate it are still up in the air. I think it's very important that we continue to argue, debate and speculate on this because this forum was getting extremely boring.

I'll start...
The reason AC remained anonymous was a form of psychological warfare against regional pilots. They knew crew rooms would be full of rumors, not knowing causes stress which wears you down. We'll slowly methodically receive more information, just enough to keep us guessing, stressed and feeling powerless. Eventually we will have beaten ourselves and each other up enough that we'll be happy to take whatever scraps they offer. It's genius really. Who knows, maybe I'm actually receiving cheques from AC for helping out by posting here. I could be a top secret private contractor.
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

DH772 wrote:
For those Jazz pilots...do not take concessions what-so-ever for the next contract. If AC needs more regional flying, they know who to hire! Neither Sky Regional, nor Georgian, nor any new start up, can complete the increased flying AC has planned to be an International player!
Care to elborate? Sky managed to get their fleet of 20 up and running. I'm not saying it wasn't without struggle. If 24 CRJ are bound to SKY, it will be quite lucrative for junior, lower time Pilots to join a company with 39 jets offering quick upgrades. 24 jets at Jazz won't offer a huge change for a new hire with Jazz's current list. Not unless Jazz manages a flow through program.

I'm not bashing Jazz, I just think you are mistaken if you think Jazz is the only regional that can handle a growth of 24 crj's. Encore has shown us quite easily how you can attract pilots on a garbage contract with the right incentives. If these are bound for Jazz (which I hope they are), they won't be handed to Jazz easily. There will be some negots ahead. if Jazz is getting a fleet renewal it won't be on a 1 for 1 basis.

I will give credit to you and won't remark on GGN. Enough said on that mess.
When Sky Reg started up with 5 turbo prop, they had trouble. When Sky Reg started up the EMJ, they managed to grab all retired AC pilots available who lined up for the exit shortly after. Yeah good for the junior pilot looking for shiny jet time, but a terrible long term model (#racetothebottom).

Now fast forward to summer 2016 when the over due Fatigue rules are introduced! Regionals will be directly hit by this....why? Because regionals fly way too much as it is!
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tdp19
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by tdp19 »

Coincidently, 3 week's ago I heard from a reliable source that AC/JAZZ would be putting in an order for 20+ RJ900 (705) before christmas. Rumour has it that AC want's 90-100 RJ705/EMB175 spooled up within the next few year's to feed there international growth. I think there will be a lot of surprised people out there in the upcoming month's on what Jazz will look like year's down the road.
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Inverted2
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by Inverted2 »

GGN can barely operate what flying they have now. The other day almost every RJ & 1900 GGN flight was delayed on the status board at the airport and the weather wasn't bad anywhere they fly.
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Let’s Go Brandon
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by Splash »

tdp19 wrote:Coincidently, 3 week's ago I heard from a reliable source that AC/JAZZ would be putting in an order for 20+ RJ900 (705) before christmas. Rumour has it that AC want's 90-100 RJ705/EMB175 spooled up within the next few year's to feed there international growth. I think there will be a lot of surprised people out there in the upcoming month's on what Jazz will look like year's down the road.
From what I understood,the new AC mainline pilot agreement still restricts the amount of 76 seat jets to 60. If Jazz already has 16 and adds 24(Good-bye 200's),that will make 40. Sky Regional has 15 E75,together that's 55,leaving room for and additional 5 to take the total to 60. What is not restricted is the amount of DH4,as the scope language only restricts the amount of fins in the CPA. I personally foresee more DH4 coming online,perhaps as mentioned already,Jazz will exercise their other 9 options and possibly take more. If that were to happen,it will likely be tied in with the removal of the DH1 fleet. Longer term,it's my guess that at the end of the current Jazz CPA,all the DH3 will be removed from the Jazz fleet,not necessarily the CPA fleet. None of what I've said has any basis in truth,just speculation like everyone else.
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razorblade
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by razorblade »

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... .2FCRJ1000

As a Jazz guy I see a lot of confirmation bias here. Sure I'd love to fly a brand new RJ (and then the other 24) but There's so many RJ operators out there (I'm too lazy to count down the list.) The timing may be right but the odds still aren't that high.
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TheStig
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Re: Congratulations Jazz

Post by TheStig »

I understand the confusion around scope because their are three separate layers in the ACPA/AC collective agreement including (but not limited to) ties to the growth at the mainline widebody/narrow body fleet inclusively, Fin ratios between mainline and CPA, 'trade-in' credits on existing older CPA aircraft and a number of other smaller factors which individually include restrictions and fleet flexibility.

With AC meeting the fleet gauruntee in the ACPA contract their is a limit of 80 <76 seat jets, not 60. This could swell to slightly over 100 if AC is able to successfully execute its growth plan. The Q400 limit is also in the hundreds although it's largely based on trading in current Dash' and RJ's.

The current scope language, while complex, was a huge portion of the negotiations that led to the current pilot CA at AC. By most accounts, and my opinion, it should allow the airline to successfully grow and provide the nessesary regional aircraft acquisition flexibility while ensuring mainline pilots aren't left out in the cold while the regionals grow disproportionately.
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