Air Canada interview !!!!

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:27 am

I wasn't to fond of your first post RB, but I can't say I disagree with your last post. The hiring policy of AC has been scewed for years and by the looks of it contiunes in the same direction.

When I first started flying I was told to catch the AC hiring wave or find something else. I was one of the morons who believed that a company like AC hired the most qualified candidates in a professional manner that didn't include favouritism or nepitism. I found out many years ago that that notion was incorrect.

If I was currently a Jazz pilot looking to go to AC I would be upset over what's happening now. I would be flying the same equipment, working out of the same airports, using the same RES system, etc..and being overlooked because of the animosity and shortsightedness of Jazz and AC's management and ACPA vs ALPA. And I'm sure the resentment will carry on for years over what's transpiring right now.

I applied just to see if I would get a call, and also keep my interview prowess up. I have 7300 hrs, 4 year degree, 3 commercial jet types with left seat on two of them, flight experience in north america, caribbean, oceanic and europe with lots of internal references including management. Hmm, still no call!

Out of curiostity RB where are you based? PM if you want.

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:48 am

Getting an interview is like winning the lottery.....plain and simple. One of the ways to increase your odds of winning the lottery is to buy more tickets.

In this case you increase your odds by letters of reference. Preferably AC pilots although management will do. Don't stop at one letter.

A buddy of mine contacted everyone he knew at AC for references, including me. He attached 20 in all. I laughed at him when he told me..........until I found out he got a call and was on the first course.

Does anyone know if the computer point system allocates points for letters of reference? If so is it cumulative? One individual is hardly a case study but it kind of makes you wonder.

It also makes you wonder if not understanding how the point system works could be a huge impediment to an interview call........and visa versa.

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:50 am

Whipline... Favoritism and Nepotism are hallmarks of the industry in this country. It is unfortunate but for someone with education, time and experience, the only carriers that will recoginze your accomplishments are overseas.

Brickhead:
The system does not track how many references you have. You have to attach them along with your resume. At the end of the day, you still have to fall within the parameters of their search engine. Did this person you speak of fall within the under 30, 3000 hours or less demographic???

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:02 am

You can only attach five files, whatever they may be, to your application. And I think that any more recommendations than that is getting a little tacky. Doesn't protocol suggest three, and no more? Going beyond that smacks of grasping at straws, methinks. At some point I think your qualifications ought to speak for themselves...

orlando-pilot · Post by **orlando-pilot** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:03 am

Newsflash: Favouritism and the use of connections (family or other) is universal. We happen to be focused on one specific industry here, but it exists in all arenas. If people who lack some connections now would get out and start networking instead of bitching on this board, there would be a lot more happy people out there. This is just REALITY!

The first thing that I did when I started flying for the regionals in the US was to have company business cards made up to circulate. I keep them in my ID pouch and hand them out to all the jumpseaters and pilots that I meet in airports. You never know where these connections may lead!

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:20 am

Orlando:
You might want to cool your jets a little! Much of the ranting you see here is simply out of frustration as many have paid their dues over the years that there was no hiring only to be passed up by some who may very well have paid their dues... just not as long! Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has a family and is looking for some stability.

Don't take this the wrong way but you are fortunate that you were able to go and get your experience in the U.S. and not have to work in the bush like many on this forum have done or are doing... I am certain most of us know how to network!

orlando-pilot · Post by **orlando-pilot** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:44 am

I agree with you, my comments may have been a bit strong and I do understand the frustration here. However, I am just trying to keep the atmosphere on this thread positive. I know this industry is tough, but there are ways to break in and that was my point. What is stopping somebody from walking their own resume in to Flight Ops in Toronto? Or to go roam around and MAKE some connections there? The key here is that not all of us HAVE connections, but it is certainly possible to MAKE them and it is never too late.

I have zero family in this industry and therefore I am not defending any position. I apologise if anybody was offended.

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:58 am

Orlando:
I too would like to keep things positive, the reality is unfortunately that it can't remain that way for long, especially when you see that there are many at Jazz who are being excluded not to mention the others I have spoken of.

As for dropping off resumes in person, or having them dropped off by someone on the inside... those days are over. It is all about completing the online application, attaching your resume and references.

From there HR takes over...

B612 · Post by **B612** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:09 am

Internal references are what this business is all about these days. Nobody complains about calling everybody you ever met who is at WJ for a recommend and we all know your chances are slim without those. Who can blame those who try to use whatever means are at their disposal. Using Mom or Dad's pull is really no different than calling up that guy you worked with briefly 8 years ago. When/if WJ or any other major carrier reaches AC's age, using family connections will be common there too. On that note I know a few people with family connections at AC and no interview. One has a degree and jet time so who knows what they're after.

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:42 am

Again sorry to anyone that I pissed off. Just venting years of dismay with aviation in general, and in this case in Canada.

Internal references are one thing but being brought on board because Dad is golfing buddies with a dude on the hiring board is another. In the financial world off banking, brokers, accountants etc. this is not looked highly upon and in fact most firms frown away from sons working at the same places as fathers. Conflict of interest is the term. This is of course people that work at the top end ie partners and senior management types.

This does not mean that sons/daughters of AC pilots should be excluded by any means but should not have a distinct advantage over other applicants. Anyone who argues that they in fact do not needs to see a doctor about getting their melon looked at.

The main issues here for me is Air Canada Jazz. Let me say that again. Air Canada Jazz. Air Canada Jazz. Air Canada Jazz.

Enough said.

Again good luck to all.

Whip: 777/LHR

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:04 am

*Never mind.

EyeOh · Post by **EyeOh** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:56 am

This makes me sick. I have gotten the same bullshit since private grounschool. "Oh, your dad is at AC, well you're set then". I said it then and I'll say it know "go pound sand". Any successes I have gotten to this point have been dampered by tools claiming (to my face and behind my back) that the ONLY reason he got that is cause your dad helped you. Well go suck an egg. I owe my dad alot for many things, as all you idiots do, but success in my career is NOT one of them. I busted my balls and ate the shit sandwich right beside everone else (with many not knowing). I've worked hard to get to this point, and I will continue to work hard. And now is the time that having grown up in AC, may have it's only benefit. I must emphasize....FOR A POSSIBLE INTERVIEW ONLY. If that. Pretty sure there computer doesn't have "name matching software". Pretty sure that comtracted HR firm doesn't know every current AC guys name and there wife and kids. And IF by chance it helps me or another AC brat get an interview, we are on our own after that phone call just like anyone else. Daddy doesnt make you have a great personality or answer a question correctly. It doesnt help in GS or SIM training. IF YOU GET THAT FAR. And garanteed, this rant or not, some knobs out there will make the same "Oh, your dad is at AC, thats why you got picked" comments if even ONE AC brat gets the nod. How would you like someone to undermine your lifes work like that. Girls get the same thing (and God have mercy on the female AC brats, you guys have a field day, ive seen it), "Oh well just because she sits to pee" or cause she's "Good on her knees". Im sure many of you are practiced in that position.
Face it we are in a time of mass over-qualification, people ARE going to get skipped over. I sypathize but it's happened before and it will happen now. No matter how long you've been waiting, AC doesn't owe anyone with out a seniority number anything. And unless I forgot to check my mail, I dont have one either.
There have been times in history no AC brats were even considered regardless of qualifications. As well as times when too many were interviewed. Now no one know where we will stand. This system is new, and I just want a shot like anyone else without people ready to pounce if I happen to succeed. Regardless, I will keep plugging away and preparing for the slim chance of an interview. And for those who will continue on their current path of stupid family comments, WHEN I succeed, be it with AC, Harmony, Cathay, or Westjet, I will be smiling at you from three five oh. Knowing I got there on my own steam.

Get-R-Done · Post by **Get-R-Done** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:20 pm

EyeOh wrote:This makes me sick. I have gotten the same bullshit since private grounschool.

Dude I don't care if both you're Mom and Dad work for AC, but I do know that you really need a spell checker... that was painful.

EyeOh · Post by **EyeOh** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:51 pm

Guessen I juest dont kare theat muuch! But i'll take them sacs-a money from ye.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:48 pm

RB211

Please accept my apologies for upsetting you. I took your first post as an attack.

I have my beefs with the Aviation situation in Canada as well but the world has its problems. For instance, every pilot that I keep in touch with who left Air Canada and went to Emirates, seeking the greener pastures that everyone said were there, are now wishing they hadn't. Same shit, different country.

The UK is no different, BA especially. I know that airline very well, my Dad is retired from BA. ( no he did not get me a job at AC )

That brings up another point.

RB211

What does concern me and I am pretty sure many will agree can be summed up in the fact that AC has moved the bar to fit their needs and in doing so are shafting those that have waited so long.

Heaven forbid that a company hires people to fit its' needs instead of some guy who thinks AC owes him a job because he waited so long.

RB211

Dock Jock said it best that 5 out of 7 (thats over 70% for those who prefer percentages) are AC family at his carrier who have been called for a chat.

You should check your facts a little before quoting someone who may or may not have. In the last new hire class, not one person was related to an Air Canada employee. The initial contact has been outsourced. A letter of recommend would probably help as it does with any other airline. In the last 1000 pilots who were hired, I would be surprised if 10% had family there. Besides, if your Dad was an idiot, guess what? and don't tell me there is no nepotism at BA! Shit, they invented it!

RB211

I have enough friends (boys and girls) at Jazz that would kill for a crack at the mainline but are stuck in a line waiting while they are bypassed by people off the street

There was a time when the only way to get to the mainline was through Jazz. Guess what that accomplished? A high turnover rate at Jazz with all the associated training costs involved and the 757 driver off the street was being told to apply for a Dash 8 job at Jazz then come through that way! Now which system do you think makes more sense? I don't fault the corporation for using common sense. Until there is one list I see this venue continuing. I don't know how long you have been flying but it was common place to not apply to the connector of the mainline you wanted to work for. Guess why?

If for a second, with all your arguments and complaints about the hiring at AC, you think that it is more of what you know instead of who you know, in aviation especially, anywhere in the world, you are pretty naive. Personally, all those who single out AC, most didn't or haven't got a call yet and it is much easier to just throw up your arms and claim " oh well, my daddy doesn't work there, that must be why I didn't get hired. " It somehow makes rejection a lot easier to deal with.

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:27 pm

While we're on the subject of Jazz and mainline...
Would it upset anyone terribly if all new hires, be it at Jazz or mainline, be given a seniority number both at Jazz and at mainline. This way as people retire from both companies the lists will gradually be integrated from the bottom up. High turnover rates are not a problem as most people would not have a problem with being frozen on equipment for a few years. Pilots currently at Jazz could be given bottom of the list at AC and vice versa. Therefore it doesn't affect the whole mess between the OAC and OCP pilots as we would all be below them no matter what. And if you are already at AC and are wondering how this would be of benefit to you? Well, I think this would effectively eliminate the whipsaw and allow the long haul guys to concentrate on getting a fair deal on 777's instead of worrying about who's flying RJ's with how many seats and how many of them.
Is there anything in this scenario that would upset anyone? ACPA? ALPA? management? OTS pilots? To me it looks like a win win situation. This is the global solution and we cannot let it die.

GTR

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:37 pm

Well this one for me at least has gone on long enough. You all make good points and thats what democracy is all about. I as you are entitled to an opinion.

My father was not an airline pilot nor was anyone in my family. I was numero uno. I grew up in Canada and chose to leave. At 30 and enjoying life I did it all myself.

For you AC kids who have worked hard as the rest of us and get a chance I say again the best of luck. For those of you that have only been at this game for a little while and get lucky and jump the long line.....Have a long hard think.

I am just glad I am not tied up in this. Would drive me insane.

JS: It is easy to have your skewed view on things as you are on the inside and every pilot that AC hires provides you with job security and an improved lifestyle. Look at it from the other side and you may see where many on this forum are coming from. Neoptism at BA or any other big carrier in the UK is gone by the way. Airlines here are getting very PC.

Good luck all!!

Flywest · Post by **Flywest** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:24 pm

Seriously folks,

There has been ONE initial class run at AC since they started hiring again.

Might I suggest it's a LITTLE premature to start jumping to conclusions about who big red is or isn't going to hire. I don't think that a dozen or so people out of several hundred qualifies as a trend.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:38 pm

RB211

I agree this debate has gone on long enough but just what does a guy who gets lucky and is hired by AC need to take a long hard think about?
How many pilots should be at BA instead of you? I am sure you were not the most qualified.

As for being "numero uno" in your world and having "done it all yourself", I think you may want to take a look at that little chip on your shoulder.

As for having a skewd view from the inside, you don't seem to realize that I had a career before Air Canada pal. I worked my ass off and made the decisions and moves I needed to make to get here. I have been on the other side as you put it and didn't hang around waiting for the phone to ring.

As for the possibility of some high time guys not getting called with Air Canadas' new out sourcing of initial contacts, I offer you this post. It should look familiar, you wrote it.

On the subject of outside firms doing selection. Quite common in Europe and the States. It is a simple weed out process that can get even the best of those out there chucked from the next stage pile.

You will do well in England and BA, your arrogance must have been what they saw in you and I make no apologies for that one.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:44 pm

Gurundu

What you say makes total sense to you and I however the seniors of both our unions see it differently.

We need to understand that not every individual will be happy but the welfare of both pilot groups as a whole could benefit. I also would love to see Status Pay and a Defined Contribution pension as well. Again the senior guys would have an issue with that.

However, with so many retiring I do see more progressive thinking going on, it just seems to be taking time.

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:04 pm

I would hardly call my numbers "research" or even "facts" for that matter. Also, who's to say even 50% of them are going to be successful anyway?! A sample size of 1 can hardly show trends, but hey I posted it as info nonetheless. As a counterpoint, there are probably an additional 5 people at least that are AC family that I know of that have not been contacted. There, its even.
Whoever said all this panicking is premature is right. One course of 10 pool hires (+15 Jazzer's given numbers I believe) is on, another course for Aug 1 I don't even think is full yet, neither the mid-August one. They've barely even hired 50 people and we're all in a froth already!!

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:19 pm

the seniors of both our unions see it differently.

Ain't that the truth. I still don't see why they would be opposed to something that doesn't affect them and can only be good for the pilot community in the long run. I guess we will have to wait a bit more. A lot of us were very dissapointed in the failure of global solution. I for one am thinking of sending my union dues to a charity instead of ALPA as they do not represent my interests nor do they care what I think.
As for status pay, that's a whole other thread but it has work out great here. People are bidding on whatever gives them best lifestyle as there is no pay penalty for staying on the Dash. As a result RJ flying is fairly junior so anyone can bid it but may have to move if they really want it. I would love to see it at AC but I don't think it will happen anytime soon.

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:22 pm

(+15 Jazzer's given numbers I believe)

I didn't hear about any Jazzers receiving numbers. Can you elaborate a little more on where you heard this?

29chev · Post by **29chev** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:00 pm

A330 · Post by **A330** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:26 pm

Jaques wrote:

"I have my beefs with the Aviation situation in Canada as well but the world has its problems. For instance, every pilot that I keep in touch with who left Air Canada and went to Emirates, seeking the greener pastures that everyone said were there, are now wishing they hadn't. Same shit, different country."

Well, to each his own, but you can have your B-scale pay group and all the concessions and mess that has been going on there. All the guys I know from AC over at Emirates are happy playing golf and enjoying the sun, not to mention flying the 330, 340 and 777's with commands coming within three to four years. No comparison as far as professional satifaction and the airline operation.

That being said, AC will be a very good career and those that are trying to get in will enjoy the ride, but it's not all roses, epecially with the senior boys at ACPA running the show. I do think, however, that the hiring is balanced and they want a cross section of people. It is Canada, after all......