Flying in snow showers

[mike123]

Using a cell phone GPS could get you to the airport, but if visibility gets too low, you still won't be able to land there.

In any case, if I had to fly through an area of reduced visibility (assuming icing not an issue and somebody at the airport tells me the weather is good there), instead of playing with a cell phone, I would either ask for radar vectors to the airport, or tune to a VOR and intercept the radial that takes me to the airport.

[Independence]

No question that you made the right decision. One suggestion for reduced visibility is you don't have to keep flying at full cruise. Using 10-20 degrees of flap and reducing power a bit has a few advantages. You are going slower, stall speed is lower, turn arounds occur is less space and the nose is lowered giving better visibility.

None of the above is encouraging you to push in to worsening conditions but rather a tool in the toolbag.

[photofly]

Using a phone for navigation comes up on this forum now and then - the recent thread about the 150 lost in Algonquin Park comes to mind. People wondered at them not using their phones to find a rough southerly heading and get themselves out of trouble.

I'm not sure that's accurate. I haven't yet heard a suggestion that the magnetic compass in the aircraft was unavailable - which would be a pilot's first line of defence for "head roughly south". A GPS/cellphone *might* have given them a better idea of their location. But outside of the cellphone coverage network (and it's patchy in a moving aircraft, at the best of times) unless you have a mapping app with a database installed (like Foreflight) the blank display you'll see on your typical map App won't help very much.

[GyvAir]

I'm not sure that's accurate. I haven't yet heard a suggestion that the magnetic compass in the aircraft was unavailable - which would be a pilot's first line of defence for "head roughly south". A GPS/cellphone *might* have given them a better idea of their location. But outside of the cellphone coverage network (and it's patchy in a moving aircraft, at the best of times) unless you have a mapping app with a database installed (like Foreflight) the blank display you'll see on your typical map App won't help very much.

No argument here. The standby compass most likely could have been used in that situation to guide them towards more promising territory or an east-west road at least. I didn't reread that thread, so I don't recall the exact context phones were brought up in there. I think most agree though, that smartphone compasses and GPSs are a last resort navigation tool and should be treated as such.

[cgzro]

I think I brought up smart phones in that thread because I found it incomprehensible that one of the two pilots would not be playing with foreflight etc. just for fun.

TSB posted they did have them but did not say if they were in use. I guess they will look into it.

But yes, turn due south, keep wings level would have been a low tech solution to survive.

I suspect it was the inability to keep wings level after an hour or so that was the real problem and smart phones dont help with that.

On the topic of this thread the original poster and other students should keep in mind that planes are certified for different conditions as are pilots and if either is not appropriately certified then its not legal to continue and unwise to do so. So another hearty +1 from this weather chicken.

I learned my lesson as a teenager when I flew back from Nanaimo to Victoria along the coast right under those power lines between Vancouver Island and Saltspring.. They were hidden in the mist.. Saw the orange bob wizz over me.. Bloody stupid...

[5x5]

. Saw the orange bob wizz over me..

That there would be a sphincter-tightener of impressive magnitude.

[cgzro]

Vomitited after I landed....

[fxyz]

One suggestion for reduced visibility is you don't have to keep flying at full cruise. Using 10-20 degrees of flap and reducing power a bit has a few advantages. You are going slower, stall speed is lower, turn arounds occur is less space and the nose is lowered giving better visibility.

Sounds like the procedure for precautionary landings. Now I understand why it's needed

I just brought a 150 from Van in November. After Hope the clouds were at 7500 (my preferred height there to see the weather in the next valleys) so I flew at 7000 feet. 20 second snow squalls every half hour, OAT -12. Extremely stressful just worrying about the weather getting worse. Just south of Princeton the snow squalls were 2-3 minutes every 10 minutes, I radioed Kamloops to get Penticton weather because I was more than willing to stay overnight in Princeton if I had to. Weather report was good, so I kept going, and after Princeton the snow disappeared.

Interesting story. Congrats for the new plane!

Does any have more examples of how you make a go/no go/divert decision when the weather's marginal? Thanks!

[Bede]

Does any have more examples of how you make a go/no go/divert decision when the weather's marginal? Thanks!

That is a very good question. One of the common responses you'll hear is to bug out once you start feeling uneasy. There is a big problem with this: most accidents happen when the pilot feels comfortable, ie fat, dumb, and happy. In these situations, we say that the theory of the situation doesn't match the reality of situation. IMO, you may be safer when you're feeling uncomfortable in a situation. When you're uncomfortable, you are paying full attention to the task at hand, spot dangers quickly and are able to mitigate them effectively. Having said that, I'm not saying to keep flying when you're uncomfortable, but rather, just because you're comfortable doesn't mean everything will be alright.

Another common answer is to have "personal minimums" that you won't fly if the weather is below. I've never been a fan of personal minimums because there are simply too many variables to consider. For example, in very flat terrain, I routinely flew VFR in 1SM & 400'. Was this safe? Yes, I think so- I had a capable airplane and lots of experience in the area. On the other hand, if I'm flying VFR in the mountains, 6SM & 2000' would make me quite apprehensive. Here's another situation I was recently faced with. I was ferrying a C337 about 600NM. When I left the weather was supposed to be good. As I started my approach into Gatineau, the weather went to minimums and YOW (5NM away) was closed in TSRA. None of this was forecast. I also didn't have a weather radar. I decided to shoot the approach with lightning flashing just off my wing. The weather was right to minimums, but the truth is, had I not seen the runway at minimums, I would have continued anyways. At that point it was safest just to get on the ground and YND was the place to do it, despite the poor weather. It was one of those days where I was glad I had some experience on my side.

After reading this thread, I'm kind of surprised that you were signed out by an instructor in that weather, unless of course it was unforecast. It is the instructor's job to ensure the weather is suitable for the student. Personally I'm a big fan of instructor's taking students out in bad weather. Had you had an instructor with you, it would have been an excellent learning experience. I try to take PPL into actual IMC for at least an hour; not because they will be competent in clouds, but because they always scare themselves and get a healthy respect of IMC flying.

Anyways, good job. If you ever end up flying commercially, you'll look back to this day when you're .. running from reserve to reserve.

[PilotDAR]

Saw the orange bob wizz over me..

You can just see the balls in the photo. The wx was good enough that seeing where everything was was no problem, but going under was still better that over. It was planned and briefed!

[photofly]

I think it's extremely important to practice the skill of changing your plans in flight. Not the technical aspect. The human aspect. Not just on a training flight, but when you've got your family of three in the back, an important meeting, work or a vacation to get to. It's really really hard to turn to your passengers and say, "I'm sorry, this isn't working out, we're going to divert or turn back, we'll have to find a rental car to continue the trip, or fly scheduled, or stay somewhere overnight and I'll pick the plane up later/next week whenever."

Very hard it can be to disappoint your passengers or people waiting for you on the ground at your destination, after all you're the new expert pilot, and flying is supposed to be a great way to travel, right? What do you mean you only got part of the way? What kind of pilot are you?

What's more you'll never ever have someone else to confirm 100% that you shouldn't have continued. Life doesn't give you the satisfaction of knowing what if you'd carried on. So you always carry that nagging doubt that some other pilot would have continued. I'm afraid part of being a pilot is having the confidence to make a decision like that and then to stop doubting yourself forever after.

If you want to go and fly in bad weather in the future there will be plenty of opportunities. Giving this one a miss, this time, was a sensible choice. With nothing other than a couple of cancelled flights at the school think of it as an easy rehearsal for that time to come when the correct, smart decision to divert your flight costs you a missed birthday, a $600 car rental fee, $1200 airline tickets for your family, or a few days of vacation you should have been somewhere else. Get ready to make that decision and get ready to be happy that you did. The alternative outcomes are a lot worse.

[CpnCrunch]

I think it's extremely important to practice the skill of changing your plans in flight. Not the technical aspect. The human aspect. Not just on a training flight, but when you've got your family of three in the back, an important meeting, work or a vacation to get to. It's really really hard to turn to your passengers and say, "I'm sorry, this isn't working out, we're going to divert or turn back, we'll have to find a rental car to continue the trip, or fly scheduled, or stay somewhere overnight and I'll pick the plane up later/next week whenever."

Generally you should have an idea before the flight if the weather is any way marginal, so you can discuss it with your passengers and warn them of the possibility beforehand. Then it's not such a major decision.

[photofly]

No, really, it is a major decision. Enogh people have died for not making it that there should be no argument about that. If you use a light aircraft for significant travel from A to B and not for joyriding - it doesn't matter what you agree in advance. Nor does it just have to be for weather, or for weather that was predictably marginal on the ground. That decision to turn around is tough.

[Cat Driver]

That decision to turn around is tough.

However it shouldn't be.

[CpnCrunch]

No, really, it is a major decision. Enogh people have died for not making it that there should be no argument about that. If you use a light aircraft for significant travel from A to B and not for joyriding - it doesn't matter what you agree in advance. Nor does it just have to be for weather, or for weather that was predictably marginal on the ground. That decision to turn around is tough.

I would suggest that you probably shouldn't really be using a light aircraft for "significant travel from A to B and not for joyriding" unless you're ready and willing to accept delays due to weather and/or maintenance. I think the problem is that a lot of the type-A people who buy their own plane for business don't quite get this.

[photofly]

You're completely missing the point.

It doesn't what you accept or agree on the ground. Every single pilot who died after flying into bad weather promised themselves on the ground they'd just take a look-see, and not push it. When the time came, all that acceptance and willingness they had on the ground didn't help them one tiny fucking bit.

Do you think the two pilots who died recently in Algonquin Park took off with a do-or-die flight in mind? Did they die because of a lack of willingness or acceptance before they took off? Of course not. Did they turn around or divert while they still could, when the winds were stronger and the ceilings worse than expected? No - because when it counts, it's damn hard to do.

Get-there-itis is a disease pilots contract - and die from - in the air.

[Cat Driver]

Like everything else in life one can not assume everyone suffers from a overpowering drive to " get there ".

Well trained pilots that can make sound decisions do not let " get there " over ride common sense.

When we were in the airplane ferry business there were many times when we just sat and waited sometimes for days for the weather to improve, and we did not get paid for weather delays.

Occasionally we had to divert because the weather changed to fast.

[fxyz]

What's more you'll never ever have someone else to confirm 100% that you shouldn't have continued. Life doesn't give you the satisfaction of knowing what if you'd carried on. So you always carry that nagging doubt that some other pilot would have continued. I'm afraid part of being a pilot is having the confidence to make a decision like that and then to stop doubting yourself forever after.

True! That's exactly how I felt. Telling my passengers about a diversion shouldn't be that hard for me because that added responsibility means higher minimums. I just couldn't stop thinking about what if I continued.... I should really have more faith on my own judgement.

[trey kule]

Does any have more examples of how you make a go/no go/divert decision when the weather's marginal? Thanks!

One of the things that has got me through the years is If I find myself asking a go-no go question to start with, I probably should not go.

If it was OK to go you will not be asking yourself the question.

[photofly]

If it was OK to go you will not be asking yourself the question.

With great respect, I think that can lead a pilot to say to themselves, "I decided it was OK to go, so I don't need to ask if I should carry on."

I'm not talking about multi crew commercial operations here, but single-pilot, when the pilot has a personal interest in completing the flight - family, work, whatever - someday, there will come an occasion where diverting seems much harder than it ought. I'm glad that having got a taste of that kind of decision making the OP got a good outcome.

[KnownIce]

One of the things that has got me through the years is If I find myself asking a go-no go question to start with, I probably should not go.
If it was OK to go you will not be asking yourself the question.

Good discussion and very timely with the weather.

I know what you mean by this, but this could also lead to a pilot not appropriately/safely expanding their envelope post PPL, or thinking outside the box of "my only mission is to fly from a fixed point A to another preset, fixed point B. If you are careful, are flying for fun, and have the time to wait it out / get stuck somewhere, then there are lots of imaginable situations where it is safe to fly when you had to think about it. Slowly and safely expanding flight window is better than being ultra conservative until one day you decide inappropriately to push on and have no real world practice diverting / thinking on the fly.

You just have to expect that as a private VFR pilot. ie. A planned (summer-time) 8 hour flight once took me 6 days. 1 hour flight, diverted, stayed 3 days, 1 hour flight, diverted, stayed 2 days, then 6 hours home, later that day ceiling came back down over the entire province. Once home, watching the weather after the fact out of curiosity, if I waited for a perfect VFR window for the whole route I would have had to wait 17 days. Never broke vis minimums, never broke my own comfort, always had lots of gas in the tank, enjoyed to some degree each of the unplanned stops along the way. It's all part of the experience if done safely.

Bringing a change of clothes / appropriate survival kit, and food and water makes it more palatable to have an unplanned stop and reduces the urge to get home. I also tend not to fly long cross countries on Sundays / day before work for the same reason.

[KnownIce]

Also, to the OP: For further consideration/discussion with your instructor, related to your flight (I'm going to agree with everyone that you 100% did the safest thing). If you were a licensed, more experienced pilot, what other options might there have been? Is it possible that the snow shower blocking your straight line from practice area to airport was not over the airport itself? What were the overall conditions in the region and the expected weather trend. How close to dark was it? How many other airports are nearby?

If you were flying a typical flight school plane with 6 hours fuel on board for a 1 hour flight, and you were appropriately trained and equipped, perhaps a big semi-circle around the area of concern might have got you to home airport? It might have also got you stuck at another airport even farther away in another direction. Just something to think about next time you are looking at a map. But again, agree with everyone, proceeding into low vis is never a good idea, and doing a U-turn back to an area you know is good is almost always the safest course of action.