NavCanada... digital maps... ?

[Taiser]

I have an iPad with foreflight. I like it, but it's overkill for my use and overpriced IMHO AND a gyp in Canada!!! Subscription is more with no basic option like in the states!!! I was looking around and found FlyQ which use to be made by AOPA, but now taken over by Seattle Avionics. I tried the trial and was impressed. Better user interface, less clicking to get info and such but it has very limited Canadian info and what is there is about 5 years old... at least they left it on as opposed to just deleting it! Here's what their FAQ states...

Note: We do have some Canadian data in the product but it's old data from the US Department of Defense because NavCanada removed their data from public access several years ago. We are working with them to resolve the issue. In the meantime, be aware that the Canadian data is incomplete relative to the US data (for example, the Canadian data doesn't specify left vs. right patterns) and at least five years old. In discussing the issue with COPA, it was their opinion that leaving basic airport, airway, and navaid data was better than removing it entirely because this basic data doesn't change much over time.

So if this is been years I'm wondering WTF is NavCan doing? I know the government moves like molasses in the arctic on their best days, but Jesus.. any ideas when they will, if ever, make these maps available to other platforms? This is becoming bullsh!t!!!

[CpnCrunch]

Try downloading the FltPlan Go app. It has everything - CFS, VTAs, VNCs, instrument approach and enroute charts, all completely free.

Also, Air Navigation Pro is very good for VFR navigation. It doesn't have the actual charts, although I find their map data clearer than NavCanada's charts.

[photofly]

I. believe NavCanada makes digital charting available only on receipt of an eye-watering fee (I heard starting at $100k, I'll have to check where I read that) and proof of liability insurance to indemnify NavCanada. That's tricky for startups. Contrast with FAA digital mapping available for free download.

Edit: can't find the reference to the fee but there are plenty of online references to NavCanada "moving forward to enter agreements with strategic commercial partners after various safety-related issues are rectified". Which is PR-gobbledegook for the same things.

[skymarc]

Foreflight overpriced at $150 per year for everything? Full IFR and VFR.
That is cheap by aviation standard.
Its the best bargain in aviation, just go buy a paperback CFS , its what $40?

[photofly]

I also think Foreflight is a good price. Charting for the entirety of North America for $300 annually. I probably save that in gasoline alone, through not having to drive around to find charts and AFD's for late-planned trips south. And I don't think $300 covers NavCanada's new paper chart delivery charges for a whole year, either.

[Taiser]

Try downloading the FltPlan Go app. It has everything - CFS, VTAs, VNCs, instrument approach and enroute charts, all completely free.

Also, Air Navigation Pro is very good for VFR navigation. It doesn't have the actual charts, although I find their map data clearer than NavCanada's charts.

I have both on my iPad already! I like FltPlan more than AirNavPro... I think AirNavPro was 50 bucks for the pro version and it does have access to Canadian Maps from 2011 I think. I you update to the 2014 maps you don't get the sectionals, it seems that they "override" the older maps and then you get some kind of topo maps instead... It now has Synthetic vision for about 20 bucks per region, so I'll be looking into that as well... seems cheap. Foreflight has it too now for pretty cheap and I think it covers the country, not just a region...

FltPlan is pretty good.. I've had the the odd crash but can't complain for free! I don't mind paying for an decent app, but again I don't need IFR and foreflight is available in the states with VFR only for a lot cheaper, yet not here...

Yeah "only" 300 bucks might seem cheap, but I don't need this for my livelihood and it's starting to add up. I have a Garmin in my panel, which needs an annual update, I always have paper charts for back up, and foreflight... this is more than 300 bucks! I have my plane to paint next month and a bunch of other stuff so it's an expensive month right now... Wish I had cheaper hobbies... LOL

[photofly]

I think the Garmin GPS updates are extortionate. But I guess paying all those gnomes to type in coordinates costs a lot.

[MikeInAB]

Speaking of AOPA, their new online flight planner (to replace FlyQ) seems pretty good for basic flight planning. As I understand, AOPA bought (begged, stole, or borrowed; idk) the rights to use Jeppesen's JIFP flight planner (which Jepp no longer sells or renews). For the 50 or so bucks a year subscription to AOPA, the flight planner is not a bad deal. See att'd screenshot.

Note that I have a lot of the various layers shut off to reduce clutter. Although they don't have sectionals per se, the topographical charts they use are very close representations of sectionals.

[AirFrame]

I. believe NavCanada makes digital charting available only on receipt of an eye-watering fee (I heard starting at $100k, I'll have to check where I read that) and proof of liability insurance to indemnify NavCanada. That's tricky for startups. Contrast with FAA digital mapping available for free download.

Edit: can't find the reference to the fee but there are plenty of online references to NavCanada "moving forward to enter agreements with strategic commercial partners after various safety-related issues are rectified". Which is PR-gobbledegook for the same things.

I might have been the one who mentinoned the fee in an earlier thread... I got the number second hand from someone who went down the garden path far enough to be given the price before he backed out. Then they wanted him to sign an NDA not to disclose the price...

[AirFrame]

Foreflight overpriced at $150 per year for everything? Full IFR and VFR.
That is cheap by aviation standard.
Its the best bargain in aviation, just go buy a paperback CFS , its what $40?

$15 for a map will cover what a lot of us need for 90% of our flying. There are a lot of people who don't fly off their local VNC more than once a year. Why should they have to pay 10x that to get the entire country when they're not going to use it? By the same logic, why don't you send me $150 every year, and i'll send you a $15 coupon valid for gas at any airport in Canada.

When you buy the paper copy you should get a code that authorizes you to download a digital copy at no additional charge. That way you have a paper backup, and you get the digital copy of only the regions you need.

We have to stop letting NavCanada give us the impression that providing digital data is somehow costly. The data is already there. It has to be, to create the paper copies. Storage is free, and bandwidth is vanishingly cheap. There's no excuse for the data being locked up, other than gouging the pilots for yet another hard-earned dollar.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Well said, AirFrame, and you're 100% correct apart from your underlying assumption that NavCanada is actually interested in serving the GA market. For the most part, I don't think they are. I suspect they view the cost of servicing GA as a regrettable but necessary loss leader to their preferred market: the large transport category carriers which actually fund the majority of NavCanada's operating costs.

[Bradley Tucker]

I just subscribed to fore flight and got the Bad Elf plugin, I think that you get a lot for your $150, if you purchased all the plates, CFS and charts for a full year for just one region you would be close if not more then the $150. with Foreflight you are always current and legal as far as what you have onboard. Then you add a GPS device you have geo referencing which is great or situational awareness.

I do not regret spending the $150 for the year at all.

[5x5]

+1 YYZSaabGuy. And you used the right word - regrettable. But not just in the Nav Can view, but also in the context of the US view of GA compared to Canada. I realize that aviation is under the gun in many places in the States as well, but overall there is much more support for GA south of the border.

The AOPA is in a different galaxy compared to the joke COPA is.

And even the operating companies view it much differently. The airport's and FBOs in the States actually want your business and are happy to see you when you taxi in. They hustle out to see you and trip over themselves offering you services and assistance. So often here in Canada we are viewed as a nuisance or PITA if you ask for any services.

It does sadden me as for the most part I am a very happy and proud Canadian, but as an aviator, I am somewhat ashamed.

[CropDuster]

foreflight is cheap and good.

[AirFrame]

To be fair, I should add that for a commercial pilot, ForeFlight makes a lot of sense. As others point out, the cost if you have to buy all of the charts and CFS on paper is near or more than $150. That cost would be paid for by commercial revenue, or at least it could be claimed as a business expense to get a tax reduction.

Private pilots, however, bear 100% of the cost themselves, and as such they pay *more* personally to hold the same data... A majority of which they don't need.

[awitzke]

......

[AirFrame]

Foreflight is the best $150 I spend a year. Just buck up.

Great advice. Unfortunately useless unless you've also "bucked up" for an Apple device. Foreflight doesn't seem to want to support Android.

FltPlan Go is free, and supports both Apple *and* Android.

[photofly]

Older iPads are about $200-$300 on ebay. Less than a decent headset.

[AirFrame]

Older Android tablets are cheaper too. You don't really want an older tablet to use moving map software.

[photofly]

You don't really want an older tablet to use moving map software.

Why not? My 18-month-old iPad is probably free for the cost of shipping on Ebay, by now. It runs Foreflight perfectly.

I can't comment on Android, and this is not a pissing match over which is better, or cheaper. It is simply that the cost of an iPad is not an impediment to running Foreflight. Of course if you want to dress up your anti-iPad starting point by moaning about how they're so expensive that it puts Foreflight out of reach, then reality need play no part in your reasoning - please continue to complain!

[goldeneagle]

You don't really want an older tablet to use moving map software.

Why not? My 18-month-old iPad is probably free for the cost of shipping on Ebay, by now. It runs Foreflight perfectly.

18 months is NOT an old iPad. I've got an old one, original model, many years of use on it. It's still stuck on IOS5 because it cant run the newer versions. More an more apps are refusing to run on it, they say I need an updated version of IOS to install. I broke down and bought a new one this week, because I have need for a camera for one app, and my old one didn't have a camera. WOW, what a difference, it's fast, scrolls smoothly, incredibly nicer to use.

I can say with certainty, no, you DONT want an old iPad for moving map software. Something in the last couple of years of vintage, fine, but an old one, nope, dont want it. I've got both now, what a difference.

[New_PIC]

I've got Foreflight on an iPad II and so far it's working well. Computers and software are constantly updating though so it's time will pass too. Just not too soon, please!

[photofly]

Complaining about only having an "old" iPad to navigate with is the 1st-world problem of 1st-world problems. I've a 1998 panel mount GPS with a 240x120pixel map display, that's perfectly serviceable for navigation: give me any kind of iPad at all: old, new, pink red or purple.

[AirFrame]

I can't comment on Android, and this is not a pissing match over which is better, or cheaper. It is simply that the cost of an iPad is not an impediment to running Foreflight. Of course if you want to dress up your anti-iPad starting point by moaning about how they're so expensive that it puts Foreflight out of reach, then reality need play no part in your reasoning - please continue to complain!

It wasn't intended as a slight against Apple devices, but the reality is that the latest iPad Air 2 is $549 for just the 16GB version. In contrast, an equivalent Android tablet would be the Nexus 9, for $429 for the 16GB version. That's $130 of reality. Oh, but then on top of that you have to buy an external GPS for the iPad, because it doesn't come with one built in like the Nexus.

Opt for a cheaper iPad, and there's still a cheaper Android device that'll beat it on price at the same performance point. Apple commands a premium, and they have the right to. It's a well sorted out product. I had an iPad II that worked great with Air Nav Pro for two years. I eventually tired of not being able to interact with my home computers... Neither Microsoft nor Apple based.

The objection isn't with ForeFlight, although I wish they'd do an Android version. The objection is, and has always been, with NavCanada's foot-dragging with digital data.

[photofly]

As an aside, I'd strongly recommend the GSM version of any iPad, which does have GPS, even if you never intend to have a data contract for it. But yes you have to stump up more for it.