Confused about uncontrolled aerodrome procedures

[1053857]

Hi everyone, I am a recent JAA licence convert to a TC licence and I'm somewhat confused about uncontrolled aerodrome operations.

For example, I am flying to an aerodrome and under the COMM section in the CFS, it is listed as MF: UNICOM 122.8 ltd hrs etc. etc.

So my first question here is: What would I call them on first contact? xxx Radio or xxx Unicom?

Since the CFS doesn't give the operating hours, let's imagine there is no operator there, would my subsequent transmissions be xxx Radio or xxx Traffic?

So this is an MF aerodrome, but if it there is no operator, are MF procedures still in use or would ATF procedures be in use?

Thanks

[Rookie50]

1. "Radio" 2. "Traffic" 3. With no operator, per #2., imagine it would be atf procedures.

[ahramin]

I thought you would call "UNICOM" if manned.

If unmanned "TRAFFIC" and yes, you must follow ATF procedures, i.e. at least 3 legs of the circuit

[1053857]

Clear and concise answers!

So would it be safe to assume that a rule of thumb here could be
ATF=Traffic
MF=Radio (or Traffic if no response received from ground station)

So what about where it says UNICOM? Apart from informing me there is a ground station, it does not change what I call it. I'm asking because I was watching a video and the aircraft was referring to the station as xxx UNICOM

EDIT: Ok, so after ahramin's answer, I'm getting conflicting information haha

[Rookie50]

Correct if wrong, MF are always addressed "radio", unless unmanned. This also applies to controlled airports when the tower closes -- on tower frequencies, announce intentions using "traffic".

"Unicom" is the OPTIONAL call up to a ATF procedures uncontrolled airport, (if manned) to get an "airport advisory", possibly request fuel, etc, from the ground station. Required calls are to "traffic" at an ATF procedures airport.

[photofly]

For example, I am flying to an aerodrome and under the COMM section in the CFS, it is listed as MF: UNICOM 122.8 ltd hrs etc. etc.

So my first question here is: What would I call them on first contact? xxx Radio or xxx Unicom?

Firstly nobody cares what you call them. As long as you call them.

Secondly the correct appellation for a ground station is printed in the CFS, next to the frequency.

Thirdly, RADIO is usually an on-site FSS staffed by NAVCANDA trained (and paid, I think) specialists. UNICOM is a mostly untrained person sitting next to a radio in the FBO or airport office, if they happen to be near the radio when you call you might get an answer.

Fourthly (did I say?) nobody cares what you call them.

Since the CFS doesn't give the operating hours, let's imagine there is no operator there, would my subsequent transmissions be xxx Radio or xxx Traffic?

It depends who you're addressing. If talking to the FSS operator, RADIO. If talking to the UNICOM operator, UNICOM. If talking directly to other pilots, TRAFFIC.

Typically on an ATF or unmanned MF your first call would be to UNICOM to get aerodrome and traffic information, then TRAFFIC following that to announce your position and intentions.

So this is an MF aerodrome, but if it there is no operator, are MF procedures still in use or would ATF procedures be in use?

If there's an MF, then MF procedures are in use. Either to the ground station (usually RADIO) or if there's no operator to TRAFFIC.

Did I mention that nobody cares what you call them?

[AuxBatOn]

If unmanned "TRAFFIC" and yes, you must follow ATF procedures, i.e. at least 3 legs of the circuit

Care to reference this? AIM says otherwise...

[photofly]

I think he means that joining procedures are relaxed if there's both an MF *and* a ground station in operation.

Otherwise it's overhead at circuit altitude for the mid-downwind or the extended downwind join, only.

[1053857]

Thanks photofly, but when you say "Who cares what you call them" I beg to differ... ok fine maybe that isn't a big deal today, but tomorrow who cares about pre-flighting the aircraft or checking weather? See what I'm saying? It is a matter of doing things right and also not getting bad habits since I'm new to canadian flying, that's why I'm trying to get to the bottom of this.

I guess I'll have to find out when I fly to the aerodrome in question.

[photofly]

I take your point, but bad examples. Getting the station name 100% right is about a million times less important than a pre-flight inspection, or checking the weather.

Good for you for thinking ahead and looking into it, but don't drop the airplane to fly the radio.

If you have a particular aerodrome in question, say which one.

[CpnCrunch]

Okotoks UNICOM announced themselves as "okotoks base" to me when I was flying there, which confused the heck out of me for a while, as I was wondering who was on the base leg.

[1053857]

Definately!

Cheers

EDIT: CYRM

[photofly]

CYRM:

FullSizeRender.jpg (59.13 KiB) Viewed 4606 times

It's all in the CFS:

The mandatory frequency is 122.8. Address ROCKY MOUNTAIN HOUSE UNICOM during ground station hours, ROCKY MOUNTAIN HOUSE TRAFFIC other times. MF radio procedures apply at all times. If the ground station is open you can use the relaxed joining procedures. If the ground station is shut, overhead join or extended downwind join, only.

[1053857]

Thanks for the input, I don't think I have any more doubts now.

Regards,

[Rookie50]

CYRM:

FullSizeRender.jpg

It's all in the CFS:

The mandatory frequency is 122.8. Address ROCKY MOUNTAIN HOUSE UNICOM during ground station hours, ROCKY MOUNTAIN HOUSE TRAFFIC other times. MF radio procedures apply at all times. If the ground station is open you can use the relaxed joining procedures. If the ground station is shut, overhead join or extended downwind join, only.

That common? I've never seen another MF with "Unicom" as the station. Any in Ontario?

[fleetcanuck]

If you look in the CARS starting at 602.96 going to about 602.102 it gives you all you need to know about the MF procedures. For ATF procedures you need to look in the AIM starting at 4.5.2. The CFS will then give you specific aerodrome procedures. Also look in the preamble info.

If it is an ATF, the only places to join, as stated above, are after a midfield crossing to the downwind or from a straight in to the downwind. You must fly at least two legs of the circuit before turning onto final. ATF applies when the MF is unattended.

These references also will tell you what calls are mandatory and who to call.

[photofly]

ATF applies when the MF is unattended.

No, MF radio procedures still apply when the MF is unattended! But procedures for joining the circuit at an MF depend on whether a ground station is in operation.

Is it common to have a UNICOM ground station at an MF aerodrome? I'm not sure. I can't find a list of MF aerodromes to check through.

[AuxBatOn]

For ATF procedures you need to look in the AIM starting at 4.5.2. The CFS will then give you specific aerodrome procedures. Also look in the preamble info.

If it is an ATF, the only places to join, as stated above, are after a midfield crossing to the downwind or from a straight in to the downwind. You must fly at least two legs of the circuit before turning onto final. ATF applies when the MF is unattended.

The AIM does not prohibit joining anywhere. Rules in Canada are restrictive. They tell you what you cannot do. Also, the AIM does not have a legal weight, only the CARs do.

Do every IFR aircraft doing a straight-in approach into an ATF in violation? What about a VFR aircraft doing a simulated IFR approach?

[photofly]

It's true that only the CARs are regulatory, and all they say is "turns to the left, unless notified in the CFS" and "conform to, or avoid, the circuit flown by other traffic". Nevertheless, the AIM goes to lengths to describe how to join the circuit at MF and non-MF aerodromes.

I would also accept that flight training and flight testing forms a relatively small portion of flying, but still this is posted in a flight training forum, and the flight test standards - for example, for the PPL - states under Exercise 17, that "The candidate will demonstrate correct circuit procedures, including departure and joining procedures for both controlled and uncontrolled aerodromes." Clearly, complying with those procedures in the AIM is something TC expects of pilots.

[AuxBatOn]

I see this as a suggestion and a starting point, not something that you HAVE to do.

Let's say a 200 KIAS airplane joins the circuit as per the AIM and there are 6 other light aircraft (100 KIAS) in the circuit. Is it smart? Or would a straight-in approach, timed to fit in between 2 aircraft be smarter?

[photofly]

I see this as a suggestion and a starting point, not something that you HAVE to do.

Let's say a 200 KIAS airplane joins the circuit as per the AIM and there are 6 other light aircraft (100 KIAS) in the circuit. Is it smart? Or would a straight-in approach, timed to fit in between 2 aircraft be smarter?

What you have to do, is make turns to the left (unless stated in the CFS), and conform to or avoid the circuit made by other traffic. If your 200kt airplane is unable to conform, it has to avoid. It's clear you know both what the CARs say, and what the AIM says - you're PIC, you decide how to fly.

[AuxBatOn]

What you have to do, is make turns to the left (unless stated in the CFS), and conform to or avoid the circuit made by other traffic. If your 200kt airplane is unable to conform, it has to avoid.

By flying a straight-in you are avoiding.

[photofly]

If you're in a 100kt aircraft, and there are six other similar in the circuit, is it merely "a suggestion and a starting point" to join overhead? Is it acceptable and respectful to other pilots to ignore the AIM and join straight-in or on the base leg just because you don't like the AIM's "suggestion"?

Given the other pilots all know and have followed the AIM's recommendations, are there any safety concerns with joining on final or the base leg when the AIM suggests that you shouldn't?

[AuxBatOn]

If you're in a 100kt aircraft, and there are six other similar in the circuit, is it merely "a suggestion and a starting point" to join overhead? Is it acceptable and respectful to other pilots to ignore the AIM and join straight-in or on the base leg just because you don't like the AIM's "

It's not I don't like the AIM, but rather that the AIM is not regulatory. If I can safely conform to the circuit while joining on base or final, how is it disrespectful?

Given the other pilots all know and have followed the AIM's recommendations, are there any safety concerns with joining on final or the base leg when the AIM suggests that you shouldn't?

Where does the AIM say we shouldn't join on base/final? It points out aircraft should join on the upwind side and may join downwind. Nothing specifically about final or base.

[photofly]

Where does the AIM say we shouldn't join on base/final? It points out aircraft should join on the upwind side and may join downwind. Nothing specifically about final or base.

In RAC 4.5.2(ii) and (v), and in this diagram also:

Screen Shot 2015-01-11 at 11.18.02 PM.png (26.58 KiB) Viewed 2880 times

The base and final legs are not on the upwind side.

For the purposes of flight training (we are in the flight training forum) students can consider compliance with that section of the AIM to be mandatory, if they want to meet the marking criteria for Ex.17 (circuits), as given in the flight test guide. After that, it is - as with quite a lot of things - between a pilot and their conscience as to whether they follow the recommendations in the AIM.