New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[Brize]

If that were true, there'd be no chance of ratification by over 1400 pilots. Mostly because there's be no future for the remaining 900 pilots unaffected by the Migration Agreement. Furthermore, current pay scales would just remain the same and the same problem to AC & Jazz would exist in 4-5 years.

[loopa]

@loopa

Jazz is only sinking if the water level drops due to like-minded pilots like you keep taking jobs at cheap companies like Sky Regional, Georgian and like you say, eventually Jetlines.

Jazz has a pension, a strong union, and probably 1200 or more pilots who dont want to flow to AC and just want to stay at jazz!

I don't usually like getting involved in debates with people that I don't know anything about. But I think you deserve a reply to clarify some things.

Where did you get the wind that I am ok with accepting jobs at places like that and that I'm anything close to like-minded individuals that drive this industry down? If you read my original post you see that I didn't support this entire thing as good news unless I've missed something and it actually is positive for anyone?

Not that this link is accurate, but gives us a base figure. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... anada_jazz

1434 pilot's at Jazz. 122 frames. Roughly 12 pilots / airframe.

By 2025 there will be 86, meaning 36 frames lost. At 12 pilots / airframe = 432 pilot's that will flow over in the next 10 years.

I heard 700 new hires and 500 retirements in the next 10 years at AC. These are rough figures, so if I'm wrong please do correct me.

That's 1200 new hires in the next 10 years. 432 coming from Jazz = 36% flow through.

So what happens to the other 1002 pilot's when 2025 comes? They will be on a b-scale salary and having to wait until flowing over to AC on an extension that doesn't go past 2025 - meaning will they even have jobs?

So is it really good news you guys? Sounds to me like the ship is still sinking but 432 souls will get out alive. Unless the 1002 people are going to be hitting retirement in the next 10 years. The math doesn't add up, roughly 1200 pilot's required at mainline, over 1434 pilot's required to flow over (not taking into account retirements). So then even if you wanted to go to AC, you wouldn't get there as a new hire at Jazz today. Maybe I'm missing something in which case I apologize for my poor analogy of this news.

@loopa

You are completely naive if you think every single jazz pilot will flow through to Air Canada

Read the post above, I didn't believe everyone would flow from Jazz. But then people jumped on me for saying that and corrected me with figures supporting that they would flow. What do I know? I'm as clueless as everyone in this thread about what the future of Jazz actually is. But some analogies sure do seem to make sense when you think about it. I wrote my analogy and somehow my opinion on what will happen to Jazz turned into identifying me as the type of person that would go to Jazz on a b-scale salary, or jetlines, or nut cracker airways Love the good'ol avcanada etiquette and poor assumptions. Read my caveat, "Good news to the ones affected positively by this." Meaning the rest that aren't affected positively by this are seriously screwed. Am I the only one that reads it that way?

This is terrible news. You are removing current Jazz pilot's (possibly forcing them to go to AC), or offering them to stay at Jazz with a pay cut. You will have a jazz that is either joining the race to the bottom, or a completely new company like Jetlines doing CPA flying for cheap starting 2021 onwards. I don't see Jazz sticking around. Unless of course it is due to like-minded individuals unlike me that keep applying and taking jobs there... like any Jazz applicant still applying for a job with this new piece of information.

Yeah yeah, "Flow through blah, blah, blah".
The fact is 500 or 600, maybe more, really good jobs are going to be removed from the industry to be replaced with what?

Read my original post above, I'm in full agreement with you.

You're hanging the wrong guy here gentlemen!

[Krimson]

I may have been wrong about who flows to AC. Latest rumor is minimum 15 years with Jazz to take advantage of the Mobility Agreement. BOL with some pay protection

Would make sense as the best way to cut costs is to cut off the top half of the seniority list.

[rxl]

Read my caveat, "Good news to the ones affected positively by this." Meaning the rest that aren't affected positively by this are seriously screwed. Am I the only one that reads it that way

Thank you for the clarification. That's certainly not what you said in your original post and as written it left me wondering exactly what your "read" on the situation really was. I did read your caveat and as a matter of fact I used it myself.

If pilots are going to hang the future on flow through agreements like WJ/Encore and the AC/Jazz tentative deal, then we really haven't learned much from a labour relations point of view in the last 40 or so years. It's still the same old story ... boss says "Gee guys, we can only afford to pay you peanuts for your services right now, but don't worry, the shiny new jets are coming."
Pretty sad.

[Calin Robandfistyou]

A flow with a minimum of 15 years of service will be a tough sell. Perhaps the target demographic is those pilots, but I feel it would have to made available to everybody to pass.

[BingBong]

Threats are not tolerated here. One strike.
Bandaid

[rxl]

I guess the best that we can hope for is that the TA/CPA combined with the fact that Jazz has a solid reputation for operational excellence will put us in a position to be VERY competitive in future CPA RFP's.
In the mean time - at the very least until we have more information - let's take'er cool.

rxl

[rudder]

The fact that the ALPA TA presentation must be first vetted by company legal (due to securities regulations on information disclosure for publicly traded companies) would appear to be indicative that information on fleet beyond that which was disclosed by AC and CHR in their joint press release may be forthcoming to the Jazz pilots if not specifically then at least generally (similar to the hypothetical growth scenarios contained in the ACPA/AC webinar presentation which formed part of the TA roadshow).

There is a domino effect here. No ratified ALPA TA - then no modified and extended CPA. I doubt that AC and CHR want the revised CPA deal to crater so given that and the unanimous recommendation of the ALPA NC and MEC to accept the agreement, one can only presume that there is more fleet information to be disclosed than is already contained in the press release and that information should for the most part be favourable to the Jazz pilots.

[North Shore]

I may have been wrong about who flows to AC. Latest rumor is minimum 15 years with Jazz to take advantage of the Mobility Agreement. BOL with some pay protection

Not an airline guy, so no dog in the hunt..

Why would a guy with 15 years at Jazz go? You probably have a pretty decent schedule, left seat, and choice of base - and you're going to give all of that up? For what? BOTL at AC, and a shiny,jet?

Why not ride it out where you are, making plans for the layoff 5/10 years down the road, and in the meantime enjoy lifestyle?

[dream chaser]

15 years at a company sounds like you should be living the high life. But I assure you that is not the case at Jazz. The 15 year guys might be in jeopardy of losing left seats in this next CA if there isn't more than meets the eye. 15 year plus captains are junior guys on reserve working all holidays and getting all the left over vacation time. This is after spending 8-10 years in the right seat with quite possibly multiple upgrades and downgrades. Jazz has become a very senior company and in these times (Walmartitization of Aviation) have become an expensive liability. 80% of Jazz captains make top end pay (17 year pay). Why is this you might ask? Because the Jazz pilots have fought over the last bunch of decades to make regional flying in this country a viable profession and not just a stepping stone. Jazz might not have the best payscale but bar none has the best working conditions of any airline in this country. For those who don't want to chase pay and big iron, Jazz can't be beat. Unfortunately, the regional airline business in this country is going the way of the US regionals where the fee for departure airlines are just stepping stones to get to that all mighty major airline job. Their regionals are our "bush" jobs where you have to "pay your dues" before you can make it in this business. But heres the thing folks. We are doing this to ourselves. At the end of the day, we have no one else to blame for letting this happen. How are we doing this? By taking jobs at companies that have sub-standard pay and working conditions. In my 16 years in this business, there have never been as many opportunities for the younger generation as there are right now. But a quick message to the pilots who are considering working for companies who's motto is "we'll do it for less". By taking these sub-standard pay and working condition jobs, you are helping to unravel all the work that has been done to raise the industry standards for regional pilots in this country. You might think that flying an Embraer 175 with 1500 hours is great no matter how poor the WAWCON is. "This is just a stepping stone for my career". Well times are good now with lots of movement and opportunities but consider a situation (another 9/11 type situation for instance) that halts the progression of our industry for another decade. With stagnant progression in the industry, would you rather be working for a company that has decent pay and great working conditions or a "we'll do it for less stepping stone" type company for the next decade after. By signing up to work for "ultra low-cost carriers" we are helping to degrade our profession. It is my hope that ALPA has come up with a TA that helps to maintain the integrity of the piloting profession at the regional level and not make Jazz a company that aids in the race to the bottom.

[rxl]

Well said sir.
Should be required reading for those just entering the industry.

[yhzav8r]

15 years at a company sounds like you should be living the high life. But I assure you that is not the case at Jazz. The 15 year guys might be in jeopardy of losing left seats in this next CA if there isn't more than meets the eye. 15 year plus captains are junior guys on reserve working all holidays and getting all the left over vacation time. This is after spending 8-10 years in the right seat with quite possibly multiple upgrades and downgrades. Jazz has become a very senior company and in these times (Walmartitization of Aviation) have become an expensive liability. 80% of Jazz captains make top end pay (17 year pay). Why is this you might ask? Because the Jazz pilots have fought over the last bunch of decades to make regional flying in this country a viable profession and not just a stepping stone. Jazz might not have the best payscale but bar none has the best working conditions of any airline in this country. For those who don't want to chase pay and big iron, Jazz can't be beat. Unfortunately, the regional airline business in this country is going the way of the US regionals where the fee for departure airlines are just stepping stones to get to that all mighty major airline job. Their regionals are our "bush" jobs where you have to "pay your dues" before you can make it in this business. But heres the thing folks. We are doing this to ourselves. At the end of the day, we have no one else to blame for letting this happen. How are we doing this? By taking jobs at companies that have sub-standard pay and working conditions. In my 16 years in this business, there have never been as many opportunities for the younger generation as there are right now. But a quick message to the pilots who are considering working for companies who's motto is "we'll do it for less". By taking these sub-standard pay and working condition jobs, you are helping to unravel all the work that has been done to raise the industry standards for regional pilots in this country. You might think that flying an Embraer 175 with 1500 hours is great no matter how poor the WAWCON is. "This is just a stepping stone for my career". Well times are good now with lots of movement and opportunities but consider a situation (another 9/11 type situation for instance) that halts the progression of our industry for another decade. With stagnant progression in the industry, would you rather be working for a company that has decent pay and great working conditions or a "we'll do it for less stepping stone" type company for the next decade after. By signing up to work for "ultra low-cost carriers" we are helping to degrade our profession. It is my hope that ALPA has come up with a TA that helps to maintain the integrity of the piloting profession at the regional level and not make Jazz a company that aids in the race to the bottom.

I do not think anyone working at any airline in this country should blame anyone for taking a job paying less than it should in order to progress their career. The nature of the pay scale at every airline in this country is based on accepting significantly lower wages for the at least the first two years with the hopes of higher wages in the future. What is the difference between first year and top scale FO wages at Jazz right now? If you accept a job at Air Canada what is the difference between year one pay and top formula pay for the same position? No matter how you slice it, we are all willing to buy our way into an airline job through accepting low starting wages. To criticize anyone for their career choices is hyprocricy at its best.

[volez]

Very well written dream chaser !


Thank you for highlighting a reality ! But I just would like to remind some of us :WE are responsible for our present and future, no matter how much we blame the big shots for asking for more and more profit following the traditional capitalist pattern.

We have to admit that if WE all stood united as one and only one group, we would have a much healthier industry. Our problem as pilots is that the wide majority of us tend to think on a short term basis, or project themselves in a future that is unrealistic if not paradoxical. We can not keep accepting to lower the standards and still hoping for a brilliant future, it is simply unrealistic.

Think of what's currently happening across the pond. Two decades ago, pilots who dreamt of shiny metals accepted low work conditions and paid for their type rating, and as a result helped the ultra low cost operators to thrive. Nowadays, it is not rare to see a third party company offering a pay to fly scheme on a 320 or 737 to get those 500h if the so called candidate accepts to fork out 40000$. If we keep accepting to lower the bar this way, this could potentially happen in Canada in the future.

Hence, the idea of defending our profession as a group ! I think that this post is filled with a little too much negativity. First and foremost, this TA has not been accepted yet. Besides, none of the details have been published.

The majority of Jazz pilots WILL NOT accept the contract if the aforementioned details do not satisfy them, no matter how much diversification AC intends to do. The group is ready to make concessions to some extent.
Jazz and AC is an old couple, they do not really like each other much but are stuck together and have to work together to find a solution that both benefit each party. The pilot group is very mature and has seen and learnt a lot before the merger happened and will only accept a certain type and number of concessions.

It would be probably wise to wait and see what the details are and then the ratification or rejection of the TA before extrapolating on the future of Jazz.

[loopa]

A flow with a minimum of 15 years of service will be a tough sell. Perhaps the target demographic is those pilots, but I feel it would have to made available to everybody to pass.

I may have been wrong about who flows to AC. Latest rumor is minimum 15 years with Jazz to take advantage of the Mobility Agreement. BOL with some pay protection

Not an airline guy, so no dog in the hunt..

Why would a guy with 15 years at Jazz go? You probably have a pretty decent schedule, left seat, and choice of base - and you're going to give all of that up? For what? BOTL at AC, and a shiny,jet?

Why not ride it out where you are, making plans for the layoff 5/10 years down the road, and in the meantime enjoy lifestyle?

This is almost intact with what I was saying earlier. The top guys are the ones that cost the most. So the top 400-500 jobs will go to AC if the guys accept it. And if they don't accept it come 2021, I am pretty sure it's fair to say every remaining Jazz pilot will be on a b-scale salary regardless of YOS. So it may as well be worth it to go to AC with BOTL if the left seat pay is going to suffer back down to Sky Regional Q400/E175 wages.

I like to hope that the class act Jazz has shown in the past will ensure that you guys get a great agreement out of this. But based on what has happened to regional flying in this country, how do you justify to AC to maintain present conditions when Georgian, EVAS, Sky Regional are all doing it for peanuts?

I truly hope for the best for everyone involved!

[rxl]

yhzav8r,

Accepting an entry level position at an airline that offers industry standard WAWCON or better is one thing and no one is being criticized for that. However accepting a position at an airline that offers sub standard WAWCON and has actively under cut the industry standard is another thing altogether. There is no hypocrisy in being critical of that individual. Don't forget that the industry standard is the result of a lot of "blood, sweat and tears" by the various pilot groups over the years including 3 strikes by Jazz pilots. By taking a sub standard position, that individual is enabling airline managers to reach into the pockets of every professional pilot in the country.

[Canoehead]

+1 rxl

[David Hasselhoff]

@loopa

Jazz is only sinking if the water level drops due to like-minded pilots like you keep taking jobs at cheap companies like Sky Regional, Georgian and like you say, eventually Jetlines.

Jazz has a pension, a strong union, and probably 1200 or more pilots who dont want to flow to AC and just want to stay at jazz!

I don't usually like getting involved in debates with people that I don't know anything about. But I think you deserve a reply to clarify some things.

Where did you get the wind that I am ok with accepting jobs at places like that and that I'm anything close to like-minded individuals that drive this industry down? If you read my original post you see that I didn't support this entire thing as good news unless I've missed something and it actually is positive for anyone?

Not that this link is accurate, but gives us a base figure. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... anada_jazz

1434 pilot's at Jazz. 122 frames. Roughly 12 pilots / airframe.

By 2025 there will be 86, meaning 36 frames lost. At 12 pilots / airframe = 432 pilot's that will flow over in the next 10 years.

I heard 700 new hires and 500 retirements in the next 10 years at AC. These are rough figures, so if I'm wrong please do correct me.

That's 1200 new hires in the next 10 years. 432 coming from Jazz = 36% flow through.

So what happens to the other 1002 pilot's when 2025 comes? They will be on a b-scale salary and having to wait until flowing over to AC on an extension that doesn't go past 2025 - meaning will they even have jobs?

So is it really good news you guys? Sounds to me like the ship is still sinking but 432 souls will get out alive. Unless the 1002 people are going to be hitting retirement in the next 10 years. The math doesn't add up, roughly 1200 pilot's required at mainline, over 1434 pilot's required to flow over (not taking into account retirements). So then even if you wanted to go to AC, you wouldn't get there as a new hire at Jazz today. Maybe I'm missing something in which case I apologize for my poor analogy of this news.

@loopa

You are completely naive if you think every single jazz pilot will flow through to Air Canada

Read the post above, I didn't believe everyone would flow from Jazz. But then people jumped on me for saying that and corrected me with figures supporting that they would flow. What do I know? I'm as clueless as everyone in this thread about what the future of Jazz actually is. But some analogies sure do seem to make sense when you think about it. I wrote my analogy and somehow my opinion on what will happen to Jazz turned into identifying me as the type of person that would go to Jazz on a b-scale salary, or jetlines, or nut cracker airways Love the good'ol avcanada etiquette and poor assumptions. Read my caveat, "Good news to the ones affected positively by this." Meaning the rest that aren't affected positively by this are seriously screwed. Am I the only one that reads it that way?

This is terrible news. You are removing current Jazz pilot's (possibly forcing them to go to AC), or offering them to stay at Jazz with a pay cut. You will have a jazz that is either joining the race to the bottom, or a completely new company like Jetlines doing CPA flying for cheap starting 2021 onwards. I don't see Jazz sticking around. Unless of course it is due to like-minded individuals unlike me that keep applying and taking jobs there... like any Jazz applicant still applying for a job with this new piece of information.

Yeah yeah, "Flow through blah, blah, blah".
The fact is 500 or 600, maybe more, really good jobs are going to be removed from the industry to be replaced with what?

Read my original post above, I'm in full agreement with you.

You're hanging the wrong guy here gentlemen!

700 Pilot Slots Reserved for Jazz at AC over the life of the new ACPA

[jjj]

I find it interesting how the total capacity reduction seems dismissed by so many.

AC dangles a juicy carrot and hundreds of guys go for it as they welcome a bit fat whipsaw.

This deal stinks.

[TrailerParkBoy]

I find it interesting how the total capacity reduction seems dismissed by so many.

AC dangles a juicy carrot and hundreds of guys go for it as they welcome a bit fat whipsaw.

This deal stinks.

What's the deal? I haven't heard anything yet? Can you please attach a link to your paranoia?

[flyloose]

700 Pilot Slots Reserved for Jazz at AC over the life of the new ACPA

_________________
DAVID HASSELHOFF IS THE ANTI-CHRIST.
http://www.esquilax.com/baywatch/

I'm really big in Germany......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJQVlVHsFF


500 or so.

[teacher]

700 Pilot Slots Reserved for Jazz at AC over the life of the new ACPA

_________________
DAVID HASSELHOFF IS THE ANTI-CHRIST.
http://www.esquilax.com/baywatch/

I'm really big in Germany......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJQVlVHsFF
500 or so.

I'm assuming ACPA=CPA?

[AllClutch]

Less than 500 reserved spots according to an ACPA email.

[rudder]

Less than 500 reserved spots according to an ACPA email.

500 out of a projected decade long hiring cycle of 1600+?

Considering the shrinking pilot pool projected in Canada in the years to come, and considering that Jazz is the second largest pool of pilots in Canada, that would seem to be close to what the natural hiring ratio would be with or without a PMA.

Of all if the move up/flowthrough/preferred hiring schemes that have existed at AC over the last couple of decades this one seems the least substantial.

[Brize]

By the looks of it so far, this thing has 1 in 10 chance of ratification.

[loopa]

500-700 flow from Jazz to AC.

How many retirements are expected at Jazz over the next 5 and 10 years?

If they stick to 12 pilots/frame they would have to have a minimum 1032 pilot's for 86 frames in 2025. So how many of the 1400+ pilot's at Jazz today will actually see Mainline when AC only guarantees 500-700 flowing based on seniority?

Another thing to consider is how many will probably be forced to take a pay cut come 2021 while waiting to flow to AC?