Sky Regional Close Call CYTZ

[cggnl]

Curious to know why the Tower never filed a CADORS.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=47d760e7&opt=0

Regards

[pelmet]

What is the normal touchdown distance from the threshold for the type at YTZ. And is 1000 feet down the runway a problem if at a reasonable speed?

[Valhalla]

Not if you remember to press the brakes on touchdown...

[GyvAir]

Curious to know why the Tower never filed a CADORS.

It's there.. the CADORS search function seems to be partially broken lately.

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2014O2878

Edit.. nevermind, I misunderstood. I hadn't read whole ASN report to where it mentioned the delay in reporting. CADORS search is broken though.

[KK7]

What is the normal touchdown distance from the threshold for the type at YTZ. And is 1000 feet down the runway a problem if at a reasonable speed?

I can't speak for SKV, but Porter's policy is on the runway by the 1000' markers or go around. It shouldn't be a problem to stop on the runway available if you touch at the 1000' markers.

Also of note I believe SKV's policy is that YTZ is Captains only landing.

[KK7]

This is at least the second occurrence of SKV not reporting an incident to the TSB in time. They had a runway incursion in 2011 that was not reported by them, tower, or the other operator involved until quite some time later.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 1q0170.asp

[Troubleshot]

I have only been in the flight deck for regular landings and disc being selected, how much more significant is selecting REV on the Q400 for shorting roll-out distance? Marginal?

TS

[pdw]

Not if you remember to press the brakes on touchdown...

... or the braking index was very low on the thick build-up of tire marks either side of centreline ?

A friend skidded similarly one rainy night 4 years ago rwy 26 there ... also in early October ... later saying that he felt strongly that the heavy coating of tire-rubber that builds up esp nearing the ends gets way too slippery if it's not removed often enough.

[Krimson]

pdw, I love reading your posts in the incidents threads

[linecrew]

Not if you remember to press the brakes on touchdown...

... or the braking index was very low on the thick build-up of tire marks either side of centreline ?

A friend skidded similarly one rainy night 4 years ago rwy 26 there ... also in early October ... later saying that he felt strongly that the heavy coating of tire-rubber that builds up esp nearing the ends gets way too slippery if it's not removed often enough.

Huh, I never knew this was a thing...makes sense though I guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfield_rubber_removal

[pdw]

It was on the evening of Oct 9th 09 (5 years ago) where at the time on google map it showed darker buildups but not seeing much there now. No mention of it (his pirep) in that report.

Neat to see the equipment for this purpose. Great reference Linecrew.

[pelmet]

Not if you remember to press the brakes on touchdown...

... or the braking index was very low on the thick build-up of tire marks either side of centreline ?

A friend skidded similarly one rainy night 4 years ago rwy 26 there ... also in early October ... later saying that he felt strongly that the heavy coating of tire-rubber that builds up esp nearing the ends gets way too slippery if it's not removed often enough.

Huh, I never knew this was a thing...makes sense though I guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfield_rubber_removal

Rubber deposits are a big deal on runways when it rains.

Here is a report for a runway overrun in Montreal by a 747 where this was a significant factor...
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1277.pdf
"The wet runway and the rubber accumulation on the runway created conditions
conducive to viscous hydroplaning, thereby contributing to the increase in stopping
distance."

[pelmet]

Different circumstances but here is another Dash that ended up at a serious angle to the runway.

"The Summit Air Charters Ltd. de Havilland DHC-5A, C-FASY was operating on a cargo flight from Yellowknife, NT (CYZF) to Ekati, NT (CYOA). After landing at CYOA on Runway 02/20T, a gust of wind moved the tail of C-FASY resulting in a loss of directional control (weather cocked) and the nose wheel rolling off the edge of the runway. There was no damage to the aircraft or injury to the two flight crew. Winds were reported as 320T at 28 knots."

[Canoehead]

Different circumstances but here is another Dash that ended up at a serious angle to the runway.

"The Summit Air Charters Ltd. de Havilland DHC-5A, C-FASY."

That ain't no Dash

[rxl]

And Porter is going to fly a 110 seat jet off this runway to YVR by adding a measly 1,000' to it?
Right.

[KK7]

And Porter is going to fly a 110 seat jet off this runway to YVR by adding a measly 1,000' to it?
Right.

Not sure how you can comment without any performance data? Do you think Porter will fudge the numbers to operate it? If the performance says you can do it, what is the problem?

[rxl]

And Porter is going to fly a 110 seat jet off this runway to YVR by adding a measly 1,000' to it?
Right.

Not sure how you can comment without any performance data? Do you think Porter will fudge the numbers to operate it? If the performance says you can do it, what is the problem?

Don't get me wrong here. Porter is a class operation and of course there will be no fudging that's not what I said.

IF the numbers say you can do it then there is no problem. I simply think that it's a rather large IF to operate a 110 seat jet on a 5 hour flight off of 5,000' reliably - especially with the inevitable wet and/or contaminated runways and high ambient temperatures. I suspect that there will be some substantial payload restrictions and/or tech stops necessary to fly to YVR or LAX on those bad days.

I sincerely hope BBD can pull it off.

[Valhalla]

Don't get me wrong here. Porter is a class operation and of course there will be no fudging that's not what I said.

IF the numbers say you can do it then there is no problem. I simply think that it's a rather large IF to operate a 110 seat jet on a 5 hour flight off of 5,000' reliably - especially with the inevitable wet and/or contaminated runways and high ambient temperatures. I suspect that there will be some substantial payload restrictions and/or tech stops necessary to fly to YVR or LAX on those bad days.

I sincerely hope BBD can pull it off.

As part of the proposed runway improvements, it is planned to groove the runway at the same time. Couple that with the best snow removal equipment money can buy, and the runway condition will not be a problem. Since the Port Authority upgraded their equipment 5 or so years ago, I can't remember the runway ever being contaminated in the winter. That includes the ice storm and extreme cold last year. They can clear and treat the runway on one pass, so it the worst it gets is 100% bare and wet.

The C-Series performance will be fine for YTZ, assuming a 5000' runway.

[PROC_HDG]

So will the C-series be able to fly the ILS 26 steep which, presumably, will be even steeper with 5000' of runway instead of 4000'?

[leftoftrack]

So will the C-series be able to fly the ILS 26 steep which, presumably, will be even steeper with 5000' of runway instead of 4000'?

Right out of the box or they won't buy them, it's built into the contract

[rxl]

As part of the proposed runway improvements, it is planned to groove the runway at the same time. Couple that with the best snow removal equipment money can buy, and the runway condition will not be a problem. Since the Port Authority upgraded their equipment 5 or so years ago, I can't remember the runway ever being contaminated in the winter. That includes the ice storm and extreme cold last year. They can clear and treat the runway on one pass, so it the worst it gets is 100% bare and wet.

The C-Series performance will be fine for YTZ, assuming a 5000' runway.

Actually there's another IF ... a 5,000' long 08-26.

Grooving that runway will be an absolute necessity.

Bombardier/Dehavilland has built some wonderful airplanes over the years ... if anyone can do it they can.

[KK7]

I believe the plan is to use RNP approaches.

The CSeries is not an imaginary aircraft, it's real and it's been flying for some time now. If the aircraft can't do what it needs to do to work for Porter, then they wouldn't be dumping resources to extend the runway to accommodate for it. Maybe I'll end up eating my words and there is a big secret screw up that this aircraft actually needs a whole lot more runway, but I don't think so.

Full disclosure I used to work for Porter, but I don't anymore. It's so tiring to hear people questioning whether the physics are possible or not when the development is way past that stage. The question is whether there is market for it, not whether it's possible to fly the airplane off a 5000' runway.

[linecrew]

I believe the plan is to use RNP approaches.

The CSeries is not an imaginary aircraft, it's real and it's been flying for some time now. If the aircraft can't do what it needs to do to work for Porter, then they wouldn't be dumping resources to extend the runway to accommodate for it. Maybe I'll end up eating my words and there is a big secret screw up that this aircraft actually needs a whole lot more runway, but I don't think so.

Full disclosure I used to work for Porter, but I don't anymore. It's so tiring to hear people questioning whether the physics are possible or not when the development is way past that stage. The question is whether there is market for it, not whether it's possible to fly the airplane off a 5000' runway.

Also at the end of the day if the C-series doesn't pan out, the additional runway length will add to the operational safety of the airport. I'm sure TC would be on-board with that idea.

[justwork]

So will the C-series be able to fly the ILS 26 steep which, presumably, will be even steeper with 5000' of runway instead of 4000'?

Why would it be steeper? From what I've read the extension will be a displaced threshold, used for take off not landing. Did something change?

[ajet32]

It is planned to certify the C-Series for the London City Steep Approach. If that is done then a steep ILS to YTZ will not be an issue.