New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[TrailerParkBoy]

So what's better for the industry? - 1377 Jazz pilots on the street in 2020, or 900 good jobs at Jazz until 2025?

Do you think AC will just dump Jazz in 2020? AC needs feeders for the expanding international model. Sky Regional and Georgian both have trouble finding crews. They wouldn't be able to meet the demands!

There are no guarantees whatsoever for Jazz beyond 2020 if the TA does not ratify.

There are no guarantees whatsoever for Jazz beyond 2025 if the TA is ratified! The game will never end until we stop playing!

[Diadem]

The FO pay at Jazz will top out higher than Capt pay at Encore and Georgian. Plus you get a pension, excellent benefits, and you'll get perdiems that will more than cover you unless you eat at the Keg on every layover.

There's no guarantee that you would have a job after ten years, let alone fifteen, and if you're still an FO after fifteen years then Jazz was definitely the wrong career path. The only way to catch up to the current pay scale is to be stuck in a position for so long that the company might not have existed for five years.
Let me put this pay scale into perspective. A new hire at Jazz would make roughly $34000/year, per diems, a defined-contribution pension plan, extended health and dental, short- and long-term disability, and a uniform allowance. At my first real flying job, as a King Air FO, I made $33000 my first year, plus about $5000 of per diems, about half of which went straight into my bank account, an RRSP into which my employer matched my contributions, comprehensive health and dental, short- and long-term disability, and a clothing allowance. The difference is that at my first job I got four weeks of vacation.
If you want me to come to Jazz and take over your job so you can go to AC, you need to entice me with something better than what I have. Why the hell would I take a job with worse pay and benefits than what I made fresh out of flight school?

[FlyHigh13]

It's easy to say it's not just about pay when you aren't the one facing a large pay cut to get into the airline industry. The industry is changing for the people on the outside into a very scary situation.

Guys have been working hard at 703/704 companies hoping to build enough hours to make it to a major airline. Now with the flowthrough agreement, the industry is heading in the direction of basically have to make a choice of going to an Air Canada regional, or WestJet regional (Encore).

After years of battling it out at the 703/704 level building experience, hopefully you found yourself in a decent paying position at a company. Now you have to give it all up to start at the bottom of a regional just for the hopes of getting the call up from the Major.

There was very high optimism that Air Canada had a large hiring boom coming. Classically you could go to Air Canada directly from your job flying people around up north, now you are being forced to accept a regional job earning crap pay to get in the back of the hiring line. The only other option is to compete for the MAX 20% positions that will be hired from outside flow. Pretty discouraging for us on the outside looking in.

There is much more to be considered beyond what you term "crap pay" before any sort of a fair judgement can be made.

The first year pay rate at Jazz for newhire first officers on the TA is actually $36.00 per hour. At 5 years of service the rate is $47.00 per hour with the top rate for first officers at $75.03 for first officers.

All of the good things that existed in the Jazz collective agreement for many years are preserved and in fact enhanced in the TA. The agreement applies to ALL Jazz pilots from date of hire until retirement.

The good things in the agreement that need to be recognized beyond the pay scale include; a defined contribution pension plan, the majority of extended health and dental care premiums are paid, short and long term disability plans are provided, various expense allowances are paid including uniform maintenance, shoes, crew bag allowance and great per diems. Even at the newhire level, it's a pretty competitive package.

With an agreement like this, any suggestion that the Jazz pilot group is "throwing the industry under the bus" is just plain wrong.

I'm not blaming Jazz for this. I see how they are kind of forced into it by the rest of the industry. It's a shitty situation but ultimately it's now the new industry standard and Jazz has finally dropped down to it.

My main point is (all I was trying to say) is it's very scary for an outsider to hear about the flow through. Guys who have put their time on 1900s up north, waiting for the air canada phone call just got a kick in the nuts. Their chances of getting hired just dropped 80% minimum. They now are forced into the regional business and delay their career progression significantly. These are the pilots that have avoided encore, ggn and sky regional and didn't participate in the regional spiral.

And even if Jazz is still the top dog for AC Regionals and that's the route someone is now going to take, the pay for the first 3-4 years has dropped significantly. So on top of the career delay, their pay has also gone down. Another step has been added to the career path for these guys and that's a tough pill to swallow. I don't see why anyone would choose to go to Jazz or any airline route now unless you really, really want to fly for a Major because now you have no choice.

Once again, I'm not saying Jazz has thrown the rest of the industry under the bus because they are not the sole reason it has gone this way. I believe they are now the final nail in the coffin of this downward spiral. Hopefully on a positive note, future pilots will have a clear career progression and avoid the constant set backs many pilots are seeing.

[FlyHigh13]

The FO pay at Jazz will top out higher than Capt pay at Encore and Georgian. Plus you get a pension, excellent benefits, and you'll get perdiems that will more than cover you unless you eat at the Keg on every layover.

There's no guarantee that you would have a job after ten years, let alone fifteen, and if you're still an FO after fifteen years then Jazz was definitely the wrong career path. The only way to catch up to the current pay scale is to be stuck in a position for so long that the company might not have existed for five years.
Let me put this pay scale into perspective. A new hire at Jazz would make roughly $34000/year, per diems, a defined-contribution pension plan, extended health and dental, short- and long-term disability, and a uniform allowance. At my first real flying job, as a King Air FO, I made $33000 my first year, plus about $5000 of per diems, about half of which went straight into my bank account, an RRSP into which my employer matched my contributions, comprehensive health and dental, short- and long-term disability, and a clothing allowance. The difference is that at my first job I got four weeks of vacation.
If you want me to come to Jazz and take over your job so you can go to AC, you need to entice me with something better than what I have. Why the hell would I take a job with worse pay and benefits than what I made fresh out of flight school?

Exactly. What is the benefit for new hires to join Jazz now? Benefits isn't going to sell it. The flow through has to be pretty damn good.

For more perspective:
I made 36k starting my career flying a Cessna. Then over 42k as an FO with excellent benefits, pension, clothing allowance, expenses and per diems.

Not everyone wanting to go to AC is coming from GGN, Sky Regional and the likes.

[Duke15]

This seems to be the best option for current Jazz pilots, but for the rest of us who arent at encore or Jazz what are we supposed to do now? If AC needs 1000 pilots over the next 10 years only 200 will be outside of Jazz unless they stick to the 498, but that seems weird if the ratio is 80/20. Basically the rest of us have been left with Transat, Sunwing, or a regional....not saying it isnt a decent career, its great...but at the end of the day if you wanted AC or WJ your SOL...seems to me its a bit of a shitty day for the rest of us.

[Mig29]

I say keep the bottom pay scale, don't lower the bar! instead chip away a dollar or two at every pay level and still be an example in the regional industry.

Flow through is a great thing for middle/upper level seniority guys, as long as AC keeps hiring and increasing their flying. If the economy stops or goes south, AC will have to rethink their hiring/flow through policy and then what?

In my opinion, reject the offer and re-tweak the TA and you will have a majority of guys saying "yes". No need of spreading fear and doomsday scenarios and pressuring guys to vote in less then 10 days. Jazz will be around past 2025, because it's hard to see that a company that is the major feeder to AC dissolves with a min fleet of 86 planes and close to 800+ pilots. Let's be real for a minute and turn of your fear porn TV channel

[TopperHarley]

If the very first offer that came along included a flow, then Im sure there's room for improvement with more negotiating which would still include the flow.

[Mig29]

exactly my point. No need to rush this through. After all it is a 10 year CA.

[countryhick]

Folks, the PMA was negotiated by AC & Chorus/Jazz. ALPA had input, but was not directly involved in negotiations!

ALPA, doesn't want the rush either, thats the timeline given to ALPA by AC and Chorus/Jazz.

There is no option/room to negotiate any more financially or timewise, that was made abundantly clear!

[teacher]

As countryhick said. The timeline has been set by AC and the flow through has been arranged by AC and chorus in order to reduce costs with minor input from ALPA. ALPA wanted a lot more but has been told "take it or leave it". Wanna play hard ball with CR? How'd that work out for ACPA? Thought so.

[FlyHigh13]

As countryhick said. The timeline has been set by AC and the flow through has been arranged by AC and chorus in order to reduce costs with minor input from ALPA. ALPA wanted a lot more but has been told "take it or leave it". Wanna play hard ball with CR? How'd that work out for ACPA? Thought so.

Pardon my ignorance, but if there's no room for negotiation and AC/Chorus are negotiating on pilot terms with little input from the union, doesn't that defeat one of the main purposes of a union? I mean this respectfully.

[Mig29]

I was thinking the same.

Hello people, we are talking about ALPA, and over 50,000+ strong membership! And you are all telling me it has little input and was told to take it or else....then what's the point? Again, I'm under impression that people need to rethink this carefully and be prepared to request from ALPA to do more negotiations. It's only in our best interest...or am I missing something here?

[loopa]

I don't know how many times I've read threads about Georgian or Sky Regional or an American regional, and pilots taking jobs because they need to feed their families, where the Jazz pilots all said "Jazz will never sink to that level! We won't let it happen! We're better than that and we stand on principle! We won't be part of the race to the bottom!" Now it comes down to Jazz pilots having to feed their families, and boy oh boy have they changed their tunes. That's what really irks me: the hypocrisy. If I were in their positions I would have done the same thing and gotten what was best for me, so I'm not upset that they're acting in their own best interest. What really bothers me is them saying that it's everyone else's fault and they're just doing what they've been forced to do. If any of them would come out and say "Yeah, Jazz is a dead end, so get from it what you can while you can", I would have a lot of respect for their honesty. Trying to sell this as a good thing for everyone that couldn't be helped because of the competition is attempting to absolve themselves of any responsibility for voting in a contract that will sell all new hires short. Admit that the only people who will benefit from the new agreement are those who already have Jazz seniority numbers, and that it's a waste of time for anyone else to apply, and I think a lot of people will appreciate the candour.
The difference between Jazz and Encore is that Encore is brimming with opportunity. The people I know who've gone to Jazz have gone there because it's the place they thought they would end their careers and make a good living; they never planned on it being a stepping stone, so they wanted good pay and benefits. The people who went to Encore knew that they were making less, but they accepted the lower wage because of the long-term pay-off. They get quick upgrades (with consequent raises) and guaranteed flow to mainline (with consequent raises). A new hire at Jazz will now make less than Encore, less than Sky Regional, even less than Georgian. There are long lines for upgrades. There are no guarantees of flowing to AC; indeed, it's almost a certainty that it won't happen for anyone who doesn't already work at Jazz. So now Jazz has become a company with no future, no career prospects, and no pay. Why would anyone leave a job as a captain on a King Air or a 1900 for $70000/year to make half that, and not be able to upgrade or go to AC before being laid off in 2025? That's ultimately the crux of my issue with this TA, from the perspective of a potential applicant. There's absolutely nothing in it for me. Does the TA have a clause about how many pilots will flow to AC if Jazz can't hire enough replacements? Because I don't know anyone qualified who would bother accepting that pay with no future prospects. There's a reason Encore is only flowing at 25%, and now that they've got enough pilots on the go they're increasing to 50%. I bet that if Jazz can't replace everyone who wants to go to AC, and the regional operation is put at risk, there will be a lot fewer than 80% Jazz pilots in every groundschool. Who knows, maybe Jazz will hire 700 college grads over the next ten years, because they would be the only ones willing to take dead-end jobs for $34000/year. It most definitely is a B-scale if I make less for the next decade, and would only eventually catch up to the standard scale years and years down the line; I'd be making 3/4 what new hires do now, and I wouldn't make up the difference for almost two decades. Even then, it would never even out, I would just be getting back on par, and I would have lost out on savings and retirement income with interest over the course of a huge chunk of my career. I would never get that back. As for raises, if it really will only rise by $1/hr each year for the first three years, then that's hardly enough to cover inflation; it's really just a cost-of-living increase. Under the current agreement, it rises $6/hr in the second year, and $8/hr in the third year, which means new hires will just fall further and further behind. After five years you'll be making $47/hr, which is less than the current second-year pay; not only that, but I already have all of the benefits that rxl listed, and I don't know of any employers hiring pilots of my experience level who don't also offer all of that. If you owned a McDonald's franchise and paid your workers $10/hr, but then started paying new hires $8/hr and didn't raise it to $10 for a decade, you're goddamn right that's a B-scale. Eventually getting back to the regular pay rate while working for less over the course of years adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars of lost income.
I'd really like a Jazz pilot to come out and say "We know there's no future here, so we're getting over to AC while the getting's good. It's going to be a terrible place for new hires, so don't bother." It would be a nice dose of refreshing honesty. Trying to sell this as a great thing for new hires is disingenuous, and passing the blame onto all the other regional operators while simultaneously voting in a TA that benefits yourselves at the cost of those new hires reeks of hypocrisy. We all know Jazz will be dead come 2025, so you might as well admit it and tell everyone here not to bother submitting applications. Just don't be surprised when your plan falls apart because they can't entice anyone to accept the horrible new conditions and replace you, or you find yourself flying with a bunch of pimply college grads who don't know an ILS from an FMS and need to be babysat all day.

+1

What a breath of fresh air. You sir are correct

I feel like I need to finally jump in here to clarify some ultra moron comments about this TA at Jazz.

Before you start throwing stones at the Jazz pilot group for trying to survive blame who ACTUALLY deserves to be blamed. Air Canada dictates what they pay their pilots and also dictates what it will pay for tier 2 lift. Air Canada said "accept these rates or no CPA past 2020." These new rates have now dictated that for Jazz to survive our costs MUST be lower or ZERO jobs post 2020.

Everybody is praising WJ but who started Encore in order to under cut and price out the competition? WESTJET. Who advertised paying less than the competition? Encore! Who works more, gets paid less with the carrot of perhaps going to Westjet? ENCORE! Who's pilots have resumes at ALL the major airlines in Canada trying to jump ship? ENCORE!

Encore, Sky Regional and Air Georgean are 100% to blame for the drastic reduction in regional wages because their respective motherships have dictated that they do so. Jazz pilots have on many occasions had their livelyhoods threatened by taking difficult actions to raise the bar on pilot wages and working conditions and what did it get us? Price chopping, wage lowering competitors that are proud to do it for less. Now WE have no choice but to lower ourselves to their level in order to survive.

Some pilot unity, thanks a lot. If anybody needed to stand up for pilot wages it was EVERYBODY ELSE who agreed to work for less than what we made.

Now, I understand that a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do to feed their family but spare me the BS about Jazz selling out new hires and lowering the bar. Jazz pilots still have an industry leading contract. Yes, new hires get paid less but will eventually make the same. It's not a "B" scale if the top end is the same as in the current contract. Savings had to be found and new hires generally leave within the first 3 years at Jazz regardless of pay as has been seen in the past 5 years despite the pay increase for FOs in the last contract. So there is the reason for the lower starting pay. It could have been much worse but the pain was spread around to everyone.

So now we have a new TA that keeps Jazz alive, provides AC with a more cost competitive tier 2 carrier, maintains the current pay scales for pilots staying at Jazz, has yearly increases for all wages, expenses and per diems (twice as much as most airlines in Canada), allows pilots who end up staying at Jazz the opportunity to make just as much as current Jazz pilots but over a few extra years and allows pilot mobility for Jazz pilots to AC.

Just remember to place the blame where it actually belongs, not the Jazz pilots caught in the middle but to all those that forced our hand and almost cost us our jobs.

I disagree with you wholeheartedly, respectfully of course.

When did Sky Regional / GGN take over Jazz flying out east for peanuts? Quite a bit of time before Encore? Sounds to me the real blame here is AC playing chess with its regionals, and Encore jumping in on the opportunity and conquering the regional market while this is happening. To blame Encore for why Jazz is in this position is completely irrelevant. Start with your other partners, and work yourself backwards. GGN/Sky/EVAS/US regionals doing AC flying and eventually.... AC. AC is the one that wants regional flying done for cheap. Encore's ability to provide the right incentives to its owners will start the flow of the kool-aid, attract people, and will expand like we've already seen it do. It will take over Canadian regional flying. All the while AC is tossing regional flying to the lowest bidder like throwing a school boy between two priests; there will be a fight. The lowest bidder is the winner.

Did WJ do that? No. They started a new business, of which they own a big chunk of. They didn't give their flying to the lowest bidder. It's unlike WJ's way to expect its pilot's sitting at 75k/yr for 7 years to fly a Q400. People that have a hate on for WJ will say, "well they did it with Encore" ... I say to you, will you put all your eggs in one basket when going into the stock market? Will you bet all your money on your stocks making you rich? No. Encore did the same. They went about their expenses with a calculated risk. Now that it's proven to be a success, you should start seeing the WJ management take leadership and improve the bed posts that are holding the incentives. Because it has been my exp that WJ never adopted the mentality of "Someone else does it for cheap, why should we have to pay our guys to do it for more?" WJ's mentality has always been to take care of their own when they can. And with Encore, they will. It's just a matter of time.

Let's not forget, the reasoning for -10% was because it's an experiment. Now that it's growing and maturing and proving to be a success, it's my opinion that they will answer with better pay.

As always, all the above is an opinion, I could be wrong, and have definitely been before.

[DH772]

As countryhick said. The timeline has been set by AC and the flow through has been arranged by AC and chorus in order to reduce costs with minor input from ALPA. ALPA wanted a lot more but has been told "take it or leave it". Wanna play hard ball with CR? How'd that work out for ACPA? Thought so.

teacher, what kind a cop out response is that?
After standing up for your contract for years, all of a sudden there is no option?
Do you not see the irony here? AC is offering a flow program which sounds amazing, but the reality is with AC hiring boom coming up they will be taking TONS of jazz guys anyway!
So what exactly are you getting? You're giving the senior people who for a variety of reasons didn't/couldn't take a job at AC many years ago an opportunity all the while screwing over every new Jazz pilot to come.

Quite frankly teacher, you're selling out your entire contract for your own personal gains. Everyone in your shoes would likely do the same so we can't judge ANY Jazz pilot for that. but you can't sit here and play down the sell out and the crap contract of whats being offered vs. what you have now.

[tdp19]

Diadem, i can't wait to see which airline you choose for your career.

[CanadianEh]

Wonder if this will make more people interested in going overseas. The WAWCONs get more and more attractive each year outside of Canada while they erode here.

[AllClutch]

Not too many people in this thread have even seen the new TA and theirs a lot of crazy garbage being thrown around.

There is a second wider part to the flow agreement that I'm not going to be the first one to divulge online that takes place after the initial Jazz influx should this be ratified. The 80/20 split and minimum 495 are not fantasy numbers like encore flow through. Those numbers are written in legalese into the CPA itself, not the TA. Like TPB said its all contingent on a ridiculous amount of Jazz pilots putting there names on a list.

No one threw anyone under the bus and with AC hiring the way it is the guy that showed up to Jazz yesterday will flow to AC if his names on the list in 4-6 years which I think is very reasonable, probably ahead of the King Air driver duking it out for the last MAYBE 20% against the AC Captains children floating around out there. This hasn't been ratified and I have my doubts so all you guys pissed off because you think you'll be left out in the cold when the AC door closes can relax.

The fact that they already have the second round of flow planned means that even if this fails hiring from the regionals to foster demographic turnover is a long term financal stratagy that AC intends to employ. I promise you that none of the suits in the golden tower or on the board of directors gave even a passing thought to the feelings and aspirations of the 1900 pilots of the world or what some internet clowns think is "fair".

For the new hires they lose the DB pension and as the new hire demographic tends to skew more to the younger side now that is very much less likely to effect them. They also will recieve a more competitive wage, if you don't want it don't apply, if enough people don't apply they will raise the wages.

This is business.

[teacher]

The hypocrisy on this board by the soap box brigade is astonishing. I've never intentionally bashed people personally for going to GGN, Sky or Encore. I know many people who have gone and it's their choice and that's fine with me. But to say that Jazz is lowering the bar and responsible for this mess is by no means a croc of S*%#!! AC pays the bills and to compete with the low cost regionals that exist today we have no choice. What are the alternatives? strike? Reject this TA and take our chances in arbitration? How'd that work for us last time? We got a better contract going forward but at what cost? Work for another 5 years than take our chances?

For those thinking that unions are a magic pill to fix things they are not. This TA could have been a hell of a lot worse. They have power yes but if the company isn't willing to pay than the won't. The options are accept the wages or strike and/or shut down the company. F#%*!!!!!!! At least Jazz has a union which is a hell of a lot more than I can say for all the other regionals who by their very existence have dragged down regional pilot wages and working conditions in this country. Place all the contracts side by side and Jazz's is still better despite the first few years pay scale. In case you missed it before in my last few posts people leave Jazz in the first 3 years if they're going to leave. So if you have to cut costs? Do you reward those that stay or those that are going to leave anyway? Chorus wanted a true "B" scale and ALPA said NO.

As I've mentioned before in previous posts the true blame for ALL OF THIS lies with is Air Canada and Westjet. They are the puppet masters and no amount of ranting about the victims of their WAWCON manipulation is going to sway them. Don't wanna work for these wages and working conditions? DON'T!!! They'll go up if suitable candidates can't be found. Why do you think the Flow Through agreement exists today? (Among the obvious cost savings via cheaper CPA for AC)

And ALL this coming from a guy who never intended to go to mainline and wanted to make Jazz a career. Now I may have no choice but to go.

[DH772]

And ALL this coming from a guy who never intended to go to mainline and wanted to make Jazz a career. Now I may have no choice but to go.

LMAO! Whatever helps you sleep at night. From the slide presentation the incentives for Senior pilots whether they stay or go is still quite decent. Again, whatever you need to tell yourself to take the flow.

On a side note, I just wanted to bring up a little quote you told me 6 months ago. Sure doesn't sound like you fighting to the bitter end does it? Unless you consider this the only and final offer? (I'm asking btw?)

Of course not that's silly. I will however fight for better wages and working conditions until I either get them or forced to accept what comes down the pipe. Unfortunately, a "B" scale (Rouge and Georgian), lower wages for regional lift (Encore, Sky Regional and Georgian), DC pensions and final offer arbitration are all now a precedent. It will be an up hill battle but I will continue to fight it as long as I can.

I won't scuttle the ship but I won't sail merely down the river on it either.

[ant_321]

So assuming the pilots vote the new contract in, how long will it take to come into effect? From my understanding ,the decision has to be made relatively quickly. So does this mean any pilots in the next ground school (rumoured to begin in February) will be on the new pay scale, or will it take longer than that to lock down the deal.