Why so little interest in tailwheel flying?

[PilotDAR]

Why so little interest in tailwheel flying?

Because, same as a manual transmission, nothing in the primary instruction gives the new pilot the confidence that they can handle the aircraft well. Few want to be seen making a slalom out of a runway which should be straight to learn how it is done.

When I had to check out a new owner on his taildragger amphibian, I insisted that he go and take a tailwheel course first. He did, but we still had challenges. I had no idea how much control that plane had, until I used it to regain control through our landing rollout.

The other thing I have noticed, is that instruction these days seems to teach that flying the plane only needs to begin when you reach the imagined "rotate" indicated airspeed, and ends when any two of the three wheels have contacted the ground. Lost is the reality that an airplane is to be flown from the first moment that flight controls will have an affect until the point when you're moving so slowly that they no longer will.

And, those pedals are for something! Does anyone teach their use anymore? A great compliment was paid me a few years back, while flying a Twin Otter. The 16,000 hour pilot turned to me and said "you must fly a lot of taildragger....". I asked what made him thing that, and he replied "because you use the pedals!" Yeah, but secretly, it's 'cause that steering tiller still intimidates me a little!

If new pilots are taught to fly a plane well, they can be more confident flying any plane well, and the interest will return.... Student pilots - demand more from your instructors, and pay them well for the good instruction that you really do need to receive!

[7ECA]

I did the required ten hours of dual in a schools 7ECA for insurance purposes, and then proceeded to get just up to a bit under sixty hours of time in.

Figured it would be a good way to enhance my flying ability, and make myself more employable. It certainly made me a better pilot stick and rudder wise, and from time to time being able to play around with the limited aerobatic capability was quite fun. As for employability, I was told by a aerial photography/survey company in Alberta, that I would need "too much training" to learn how to fly their Super Cubs...

[iflyforpie]

The place where I learned to fly tailwheel and got my first job had a nice Citabria 7GCBC for tailwheel and aerobatic training. They also used it for 702 operations like boat counts and fire patrols to offset the fixed costs.

They couldn't make a go of it because of the dwindling number of students and the high direct operating costs.

As the number of tailwheel airplanes available for instruction dwindle due to economics and lack of interest, it is going to have to be up to grass-roots operators to provide aircraft and instruction to fill the gaps.

But why do we need this type of instruction when most of our flying from elementary training to airlines is done on tricycle gear aircraft?

What does a tailwheel aircraft provide a tricycle gear aircraft can't?

Tailwheel aircraft are very unforgiving of sloppy control... yaw, attitude, altitude on landing... all need to be within acceptable parameters or you will be bouncing, nosing over, or headed off to the tulips and probably leaving large portions of the airplane behind. A tricycle gear aircraft will complain about these things, but will straighten them out for you in most cases with little more than some extra rubber on the runway and passengers who will never fly with you again.

Having those skills will make any pilot a better pilot.

As a private pilot, you should get checked out on a taildragger. It will hone your skills, and it will also open up all kinds of flying opportunities as they present themselves... like 'walking' that taildragger that never gets flown, ferrying one, or purchasing one (outside of the Cessna workhorses, lots of them are cheaper than their tri-gear equivalents). The best homebuilts and ultralights are tailwheel too...

As a commercial pilot, you should get checked out on a taildragger. In addition to the above, it is one more thing that can get you that elusive first job--even if you are on your way to the airlines. That camp operator who has a 180, the banner towing company who has a Super Cub, the gliding club that has a Pawnee.... experience with a taildragger could be the difference between getting a few hundred hours over a summer vs slaving away on the ramp.... if you are lucky. Your piloting will benefit in numerous other facets of aviation too... floats, gliding, aerobatics, rotary... even multi engine operations where prompt and correct control of yaw is critical.

[iflyforpie]

Oh... and they're cooler too.

I own a quite a few works of aviation art... all bought by relatives since they know I like planes. The only tricycle gear plane in there is a Constellation.

[PilotDAR]

And taildraggers are simply better and more rugged for some types of operations. Big wheels on unprepared runways, skis, and flying boat amphibians which you might like to beach.

Flying tailwheel well is like driving manual transmission well, and up and downshifting with ease. A potential employer may not directly require you to have that skill, but they will respect you for it, because you bothered to take flying seriously, and go outside your tricycle comfort zone. If you have learned to handle any taildragger well, you will handle every other plane better, and many employers know this.....

[bigEh]

I'm pretty sure the lack of tailwheel flying is a mixture of a few of the ideas above.

I'd say that I agree with NorthShore in that these days most pilots are taking their training for a career. You have to be in a fairly high income bracket to afford flying as a hobby, especially if you have house, kids, car payments etc.....My float instructor said he got his CPL for around $800 back in his day. That is ridiculous compared to what we pay today. GA is a dream to the vast majority of the population.

Perhaps it is cheaper for a flight training school/club to insure a fleet of 172s? If the tricycle is that much easier to land, then it would make sense for a school to prefer the 172. Less chance of an accident?

For me, it was a lack of access to a tailwheel aircraft that stopped me. I tried to locate one to train on several different times and in several different ways. I explored posts here on AvCanada and sent multiple PMs. I even flew up to Nanaimo and left my name and number with a few friendly gentlemen at the Nanaimo airport just in case. I phoned several schools in my area and some even much farther away. But there was limit to the distance I was willing to drive or fly and the amount of money I was willing to spend. I did my float rating plus a few extra float hours in the hopes that those hours would lead to a float job. I'm not sure training in a tailwheel aircraft would give me a better chance at a job? Maybe I'm wrong?

And maybe I am an exception. All I wanted to do was get as much varied experience as possible before I got my first job. I would rather have had a bunch of different aircraft types flown then a MIFR.

If I am lucky, Ill get to train on a tailwheel in the coming months at my current job. I am really looking forward to challenging myself and seeing how good I am at using the pedals.

[iflyforpie]

There are plenty of people with money for boating, golfing , RVing, travelling, or any of the bewildering number of other motorsports. The money is out there... and a much larger chunk of it used to go towards aviation. I think it is the 'instant gratification' crowd and the perception that aviation is much more expensive, dangerous, complex, and exclusive that keeps pushing GA down in priorities... .

For far less than what a brand new 4x4 1/2 ton pickup truck costs (how many of those do you see around?) you can get a person off the street and into his or her own taildragger aircraft. Get an RPP or an Ultralight License, get a few more hours in a taildragger, and buy something cheap but airworthy like an Aeronca 7AC, a Kitfox, or even a Chinook AULA.

[DonutHole]

A lot comes down to what a guy can do. I hAve a huge boat, a few smaller boats, a sailboat,sports cars, motorcycles, a truck, an airplane soon to two... I have less than 60 invested in everything, sure they aren't shiny and new, but Aside from the aircraft all are serviceable, the 140 should be done this fall, hopefully in time for the federals.

It's priorities and choices. For sure a f350 hd would be awesome... but for the same money I could double my fleet and have 4X the equity.

Teach your kids to do stuff and they'll fly taildraggers.

[AirFrame]

Flying schools are more about making money, and less about making pilots.

Tricycle trainers teach people to drive an airplane from A to B. Tailwheels teach people what their feet are for, and how much fun it is to *fly* from A to B.

Similarly, automatic transmissions are for people who use a car to get from one place to another. Manual transmissions are for people who love the drive.

[GyvAir]

Teach your kids to do stuff and they'll fly taildraggers.

I think DH is onto something there. I find more and more that a large percentage of kids are growing up without ever learning to "do" anything. There are a remarkable number of teenagers and twenty somethings out there that actually don't know how to ride a bicycle, drive a car, cook an egg, or pay their own rent. Want to take a stab at teaching one of their ilk to drive a tail dragger? And then cut them loose in it? As that percentage grows, the interest in taking on challenging skills such tailwheel flying is bound to dwindle.

Old man rant over.

[PositiveRate27]

Its just simple progression and the "next generation" has little interest in the things we found fascinating.

Yes, I understand and it really started back in the late fifties when Cessna replaced the 170 with the 172 with the " Land o matic " landing gear.

It made it easier and the training industry adopted it as the best way to learn.

Now it is difficult to find a Class 1 instructor who has the flying skills to fly a Cessna 170, let alone teach on one.

We may be dinosaurs but at least we can fly conventional gear airplanes as well as the kiddy car trikes.

But ....

..... there has to be a market out there for tailwheel training on a Cub....

There has to be.

Sign me up Cat! The older I get, the more I day dream about grassroots aviation and warbirds...

[Meatservo]

When I was getting my private license as a kid, I didn't know there was an issue. Sure, I knew about the two different styles of landing gear, but I didn't give it much thought. The flying club I learned at only had nose-wheel planes but like I say, I didn't even think about it. The Cessna 150s and 172s I learned on were just "planes" to me.

Then after college I got a job, and had the good fortune to find work with "bush" operators who were not "seasonal". The floatplanes went on wheels in the fall and it was here that I discovered there is a bit of a technique to taking off and landing in a 185 on wheels. It took about a day for my very brave chief pilot to show me how to do it. Of course since then I have flown Beavers and Otters on wheels as well, and I've also learned that the hardest thing about being a pilot isn't "taking off and landing" anyway.

But, even though I no longer find conventional gear "harder", I still find it "funner"!

I figure more people don't get around to learning how to fly on conventional gear because few schools have a trainer with a tailwheel, and even fewer will let you rent one.

Also there's a good point about people who are training in order to get a job, and anything that attenuates their journey from a Cessna 150 to the left seat of a 777 isn't of interest to them. I feel sorry for people like this, because it is my belief that if your primary motivation isn't an enthusiasm for flight and a love of aeroplanes or helicopters (or both), you are probably on the road to ending up bitter and jaded in your career as a pilot. That might be true for engineers as well, I have a feeling... That's just my opinion though, what do I know, I always loved planes.

[CFR]

Must be a local thing and goes in cycles.

For a while there, any time I wanted one of the local schools 7ECA's it was mine for the asking.

Lately they are tough to book. In Winnipeg both of Harv's Citabria's and Winnipeg Aviation's Decathlon are in the air quite often.

[Posthumane]

Me and several other people in my circle would love to get more time on tailwheel aircraft, as well as some aerobatics. The problem is one of availability. If I want to do some training on a Cessna/Piper/Diamond trike, I can pretty much walk into any school, pay a nominal rate, and go to it. That isn't the case with tailwheel aircraft. They are considered "specialized" training and only a very limited number of instructors and aircraft are available for rent, and many of them don't advertise so you have to really dig to find them. You usually also end up paying more for both the instructor and the airplane rental.

[C-FDPB]

It really is too bad that tailwheel flying is on the decline. Bush flying is what made me want to enter the industry as a wee lad and a fair chunk of wheeled bushplanes are tailwheel. I've tried in the past to see where tail wheel experience is offered but that might need an update now. I think it would be good to keep the rust off over the winter and learn a new skill set while I wait for the hard water to go away. Anyone willing to chip in a few cents on where one might find tailwheel experience around the country? Not only for myself in NE Ontario, but also for others interested countrywide?

Cheers

DPB

[Meatservo]

Sounds like Cat Driver might be your man. A man with a plan, if you will.

[Cat Driver]

When I teach pilots how to fly tail wheel airplanes the flying part is very short.

We fly one minute circuits left hand, right hand repeated for half hour lessons.

However they do not get to leave the ground until they can control the machine on the ground.

First they must be competent in recovery from controlled ground loops at taxi speed.

Then they must demonstrate they can repeatedly S turn down the center line with the tail in the air, back and forth down the runway.

Then they can go flying.

In over half a century of teaching pilots to fly tail wheel airplanes I do not know of one pilot who lost control of an airplane on the ground......because they were confident and know their limits.

I know in the first half hour if the student has the hand, feet, eye co-ordination to learn.

It is rare to find one that can not be taught.

[New_PIC]

Part of it is availability. For me, it would depend on where you are going to be Cat. I haven't heard of anything like that near here. However, last year I made a trip to visit some relatives in south eastern Ontario. I used the opportunity to contact the Colonel and got several hours of instruction over a couple of days in his Maule. A worthwhile experience, for sure. We identified a number of areas that I could certainly use some extra work on! So there are some potential customers around.

[Cat Driver]

To bad the Colonel is no longer posting here....in fact I feel downright sad he is not here.

You were very fortunate to have flown with him.

[Cat Driver]

My plan is to set up a franchise company with tail wheel airplanes available from coast to coast.

The airplanes may vary but the training will follow exactly the same program as I will set up.

Iflyforpie is already part of my plan as he is finishing building the Cub.....me I am roaming across the country in my new motor home.

[jump154]

For Southern Ontario, these guys have been around for a few years now: http://www.3pointaviator.com/

[Adam Oke]

When I teach pilots how to fly tail wheel airplanes the flying part is very short.

We fly one minute circuits left hand, right hand repeated for half hour lessons.

However they do not get to leave the ground until they can control the machine on the ground.

First they must be competent in recovery from controlled ground loops at taxi speed.

Then they must demonstrate they can repeatedly S turn down the center line with the tail in the air, back and forth down the runway.

Then they can go flying.

This is exactly how I learned to fly taildraggers. The ground work as you describe is to a T.

Circuits were similar in that we never broke 200 AGL. Circuits were not your typical FTU pattern. Circuits patterns flown were; take off into wind, and land down wind. I would land and keep the tail flying for as long as possible and taxi to the end and take off into wind once again. Brakes were not to be touched as I had none. This put emphasis on using controls to keep ahead of the aircraft vs using brakes to correct you being lazy. Once I was competent to stop and go in a short enough distance, it then looked much like a figure 8 taking off and and landing from both ends of the runway. This was either into wind or down wind take offs and turning 180 onto final. This made for more take offs and landings than one could imagine at an FTU. Once we wrapped up winds down the pipe, we moved on to cross winds and pavement. We went to our local triangle shaped runway and would take off, left turn onto final on the next runway, land and stop. Depart, left turn onto final on the next runway, land and stop ... so on and so forth. This gave a great deal of exposure to headwinds, tailwinds, cross winds, quartering tail winds from the right, and the more so challenging left. To this day, wind is negligible as you just use the required inputs to control the aircraft. All landings were stop and go's as a touch and go as touch and goes are relatively pointless. The hardest part of flying a taildragger is raising and lowering the tail from tie downs to wheels up.

[Cat Driver]

We now have three people who see the need for a franchised tail wheel business.....Iflyforpie, Adam and me.

Why don't we just start it and have some satisfaction in having improved the flying industry?

We could call it " Grass roots Flying incorporated "

Or some such name.

I will offer my background and advice to help you guys get it set up for free.

We can decide who holds what position by voting for who we want in what position.

@#$! we could be the Tim Hortons of flying.

[Adam Oke]

It's the fastest route to 100 k

Think about it... Adam, how many acres will a 502 do?

Multiply that by 1.30 to 1.50

Ag is a pretty good business to get into if you're chasing fun and money over shiny tubes.

There is also demand for Canadians. About 30% (my observation) of the pilot pool is made up of tfws from aus or new zealand.

We just don't have enough guys making the effort to move up.

I won't tell you how much we make in ag, or how much time we get off in a year...otherwise everyone will be after my acres! I tell my friends that I am semi retired. I do not hold a multi or IFR either. When people ask why I don't want to be an airline pilot, I say because they don't make any money. I wish I were kidding. I'll keep playing with my taildraggers for now ... move along everyone, nothing to see here!

[Adam Oke]

We now have three people who see the need for a franchised tail wheel business.....Iflyforpie, Adam and me.

Why don't we just start it and have some satisfaction in having improved the flying industry?

We could call it " Grass roots Flying incorporated "

Or some such name.

I will offer my background and advice to help you guys get it set up for free.

We can decide who holds what position by voting for who we want in what position.

@#$! we could be the Tim Hortons of flying.

I like it .! You supply the plane, and I'm your man!