New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[Brick Head]

I wouldn't call it a race to the bottom. I would call it full circle or perhaps return to where we started.

I was hired at Air BC in 1989 as a -8 FO. I made just under $1500/ month to start. 18K/year. Even with inflation that is less than 30k/year in today's dollars. At the time my wife made $12/hour working the cash register at HBC. Full time about 23k/year.

My point? This isn't new. What was happening then to drive down wages. Air Canada and Canadian were starting new regionals all across the country. No unions. The companies set wages low and almost no long serving employees. The one exception being Air Ontario.

What is happening now? Exactly the same thing.

What I realized back in the 1990's is that if you don't work for the company holding the purse strings? You're at far greater risk than the employees that do.

Not much has changed IMO.

[dukepoint]

So, as far as I know, today's the deadline for "the list".

Who on AvCanada's coming over to the best party in Aviation??? You'll be glad you got on the "list without limits".

The forum will look different from here.

DP.



....anyone know what the "demographic" is in general??? I'm looking forward to flying / catching up with old buddies. They were, and likely still are a class act.

[AllClutch]

The list closes tomorrow at 6 pm et.

[rxl]

So, as far as I know, today's the deadline for "the list".

....anyone know what the "demographic" is in general???

No one knows. All will be revealed tomorrow.
Maybe ...

[rooster]

This new Jazz symphony acts as an added reason for why I think Encore will succeed as well. Because if it's been a good experience travelling on AC regionals, it's been on Jazz. So you guys have been the one saving AC's image while the SKY's/EVAS/GGN's have damaged it on a regional scale.

What?! Now where did you find the shovel you used to dig this kind of crap up? Jazz has been saving AC's regional image and SKY/GGN/EVAS are damaging it? How so? This is by far one of the most ridiculous statements.That statement should also be extremely insulting to the pilots and crews of those 'damaging ' regional carriers. I'm sure they work very hard to maintain a professional image just like any other pilot. Hell the 1900 guys have it tougher with no FA!! Who are you to call them image damagers?

Look at you on your pedestal. Careful, it might break one day.

[Stinky]

Because if it's been a good experience travelling on AC regionals, it's been on Jazz.

Yeah right, people just love flying on beat up RJ's and Dash 8 100's. I'm pretty sure people prefer the Embraer 175.

How many passengers actually have a clue what company is operating the plane? Not too many.

[rxl]

Loopy,

As a Jazz guy we deadhead regularly on mainline and most of the Express carriers.
All equally good service.

[PROC_HDG]

Loopa, I think you will find that some of the best service in the Canadian airline industry is on Sky Regional's Toronto Island flying.

And their pilots will soon be the best paid Q400 drivers in the country - for the first 6 years anyway. That is, if this new Jazz TA doesn't give SKV management a reason to lower the rate. Bravo guys.

PROC_HDG

[Mig29]

Loopa, I think you will find that some of the best service in the Canadian airline industry is on Sky Regional's Toronto Island flying.

And their pilots will soon be the best paid Q400 drivers in the country - for the first 6 years anyway. That is, if this new Jazz TA doesn't give SKV management a reason to lower the rate. Bravo guys.

PROC_HDG

[Splash]

Loopa, I think you will find that some of the best service in the Canadian airline industry is on Sky Regional's Toronto Island flying.

And their pilots will soon be the best paid Q400 drivers in the country - for the first 6 years anyway. That is, if this new Jazz TA doesn't give SKV management a reason to lower the rate. Bravo guys.

PROC_HDG

That may be very temporary.

http://business.financialpost.com/2015/ ... d-airport/

[PROC_HDG]

That may be very temporary.

http://business.financialpost.com/2015/ ... d-airport/

A sly political move from AC; They are not leaving YTZ any time soon.

[PROC_HDG]

Mig, can you explain what about my statement is wrong? Are you suggesting this isn't true?

PROC_HDG

[mbav8r]

I'll tell you, I can't speak to your island service but the second part of your statement is first of all wrong and secondly hypocritical. Sky is the main reason we had to(no choice) agree to lower pay for new hires, so Bravo SKV pilots!
Only new hire pilots will be making less, assuming any accept those wages, but the past shows that won't be a problem. I'll say this though most new hires will likely be on the Dash classic, so no you won't be the highest paid Q pilots

[PROC_HDG]

I'll tell you, I can't speak to your island service but the second part of your statement is first of all wrong and secondly hypocritical. Sky is the main reason we had to(no choice) agree to lower pay for new hires, so Bravo SKV pilots!
Only new hire pilots will be making less, assuming any accept those wages, but the past shows that won't be a problem. I'll say this though most new hires will likely be on the Dash classic, so no you won't be the highest paid Q pilots

You're right, regionals suck. SKV et al are in part to blame for the race to the bottom, but don't tell me SKV is the main reason. You can blame ACPA and AC management to an equal degree. I wish regionals didn't exist. I wish every legacy carrier's labour group in recent history hadn't accepted concessionary scope agreements, and anything over 19 seats was a mainline airplane. I wish we all worked at mainline. But that being said, any time ANY airline lowers their entry level pay, the industry suffers in the long run. Jazz has a fantastic group of professionals but if they vote this in it will be a blow to everyone.

Please reference This Thread for the latest pay at SKV. The long and the short of it is that this "main reason for lower pay" airline has better pay in the first years to the tune of $10,000 more than Jazz as per the rumoured B-scale rates of this new TA. Add RRSP, profit incentive, per diem, full benes etc on top of that (yes, they have those at SKV despite what avcanada would have you believe).

Regionals all suck ass. The existence of the regional model is the result of the many failures of not-so-organized labour in our industry, the latest of which is Jazz, this so-called bastion of good WAWCON, voting in a sub $40/hr b-scale.

At the end of the day we're all on the same team here.

PROC_HDG

[emmasuzy]

Jazz has achieved more than 625 to move this agreement forward...

[Krimson]

So now that they have received enough names to vote this forward, can someone share what the big secret was that will entice new hires?

[AllClutch]

...

[Fanblade]

Jazz has achieved more than 625 to move this agreement forward...

How well was the PMA subscribed too? Seniority spread?

Just curious.

[AllClutch]

All we were told was that there was over 625 on the list. There is a little less than 500 hired post year 2000 so you have to assume most of those guys, I know of a few guys in the top 500 looking for the FIP money but it didn't seem like too many of those guys in the 500-880 range bought into it. There's a pretty big stick to accompany this carrot if your name is on that list and you choose not to go to AC.
I didn't think we would get 625 personally so I'm happily surprised.

[CBcloud9]

When does the new agreement take effect?

[prop2jet]

The TA ratification process concludes today. The process of "Flow" to AC has probably already begun, in that the list is being compiled and files pulled so that AC Flt ops can review.

Once the list is exhausted a new program will be put in place whereby AC will hire the majority of it's pilots from it's "AC Express" Family of carriers.

[loopa]

It is an opinion.

I'm sure there are a lot of professionals at said companies. But I think its inevitable that low pay and over worked conditions will result in a suffered customer service. We don't have to agree.

I'm not on any pedestal. Sorry my writing style seems to upset you so much. I think I even said I could be wrong...

Have a good one mate

What?! Now where did you find the shovel you used to dig this kind of crap up? Jazz has been saving AC's regional image and SKY/GGN/EVAS are damaging it? How so? This is by far one of the most ridiculous statements.That statement should also be extremely insulting to the pilots and crews of those 'damaging ' regional carriers. I'm sure they work very hard to maintain a professional image just like any other pilot. Hell the 1900 guys have it tougher with no FA!! Who are you to call them image damagers?

Look at you on your pedestal. Careful, it might break one day.

[rooster]

Ya? And what are you basing your opinion that Jazz has been saving AC's image while the rest damage it? What basis does that nonsense come from?

The pay? Just because crews may work more at some of those regionals, it does not mean service is always affected. And as someone else astutely commented, do you think a majority of the flying public have a clue about cpa carriers? They see air canada on their ticket, and that's who gets feedback. Not the cpa carriers.

I'm going to assume then that your passengers when you were at cma were the unfortunate victims of poor customer service as opposed to flying on Pacific Coastal? Cuz that is a crap statement even though I'm being ficitious

I'm all for opinions, but make them educated. Not ridiculous. I feel for those working at cpa carriers who had to read that statement.

It is an opinion.

I'm sure there are a lot of professionals at said companies. But I think its inevitable that low pay and over worked conditions will result in a suffered customer service. We don't have to agree.

I'm not on any pedestal. Sorry my writing style seems to upset you so much. I think I even said I could be wrong...

Have a good one mate

[tdp19]

Ya? And what are you basing your opinion that Jazz has been saving AC's image while the rest damage it? What basis does that nonsense come from?

The pay? Just because crews may work more at some of those regionals, it does not mean service is always affected. And as someone else astutely commented, do you think a majority of the flying public have a clue about cpa carriers? They see air canada on their ticket, and that's who gets feedback. Not the cpa carriers.

I'm going to assume then that your passengers when you were at cma were the unfortunate victims of poor customer service as opposed to flying on Pacific Coastal? Cuz that is a crap statement even though I'm being ficitious

I'm all for opinions, but make them educated. Not ridiculous. I feel for those working at cpa carriers who had to read that statement.

It is an opinion.

I'm sure there are a lot of professionals at said companies. But I think its inevitable that low pay and over worked conditions will result in a suffered customer service. We don't have to agree.

I'm not on any pedestal. Sorry my writing style seems to upset you so much. I think I even said I could be wrong...

Have a good one mate

Well, I do tend to agree that the flying public generally has no idea on which airline they are flying with, most assume it is Air Canada. Most people would rather fly on an 175, than an RJ, and an RJ more than a Dash, and a Dash more than a beech, simply based off the Jet Affect and size.

In term's of Jazz saving other regional's butt's, it is a fact. Look at all the flight's Jazz had to pickup from the GGN RJ operation. Look at an Arrival's/Departures board next time your at the airport and the OTP of said companies, and cancelled flight's. There are a lot WDO calls to do routes that we DON'T do anymore

[loopa]

Ya? And what are you basing your opinion that Jazz has been saving AC's image while the rest damage it? What basis does that nonsense come from?

The pay? Just because crews may work more at some of those regionals, it does not mean service is always affected. And as someone else astutely commented, do you think a majority of the flying public have a clue about cpa carriers? They see air canada on their ticket, and that's who gets feedback. Not the cpa carriers.

I'm going to assume then that your passengers when you were at cma were the unfortunate victims of poor customer service as opposed to flying on Pacific Coastal? Cuz that is a crap statement even though I'm being ficitious

I'm all for opinions, but make them educated. Not ridiculous. I feel for those working at cpa carriers who had to read that statement.

It is an opinion.

I'm sure there are a lot of professionals at said companies. But I think its inevitable that low pay and over worked conditions will result in a suffered customer service. We don't have to agree.

I'm not on any pedestal. Sorry my writing style seems to upset you so much. I think I even said I could be wrong...

Have a good one mate

First off, let me apologize if I have upset you. Clearly we have different opinions and that's ok. You're absolutely right that people will not see the regional carriers, but will see AC as the image if something goes wrong at the CPA level. Which was the connection I was making originally. When you have under paid, over worked people at the CPA level, customer service won't be there. And AC gets the image, and consumers will slowly switch over to WJ. I have flown on the cpa carriers in the east and in the west, and in my experience Jazz always overdid what the group did out east. This isn't a slap in the face of the people that do CPA flying at outfits other than Jazz. It's an opinion. I think maybe you're the one putting me on such a high pedestal since you seem to believe my opinion hurts the hundreds of CPA pilot's that aren't Jazz. I'm sure no body really cares what the opinion of an internet forum user is. But since you do, I am going to carry on talking about some more things. (Hopefully you share my sense of humour).

If you truly knew about my time at CMA, you'd agree that my time at CMA was a great tenure. A time I'm grateful for and very respectful towards. I also didn't have any real experience then, so a turbine gig with an outfit like CMA was like a dream come true. Being thankful for such position led to a great intent for customer service, and being a driven company man. There weren't many opportunities that I said no to during my time there. Hence why I still have a great relationship with my former cp and am welcome back to a job if I wanted. I also gained a great deal of experience by raising my hand up and doing extra chores. Both professional and personal developments. However I remember pilots who were extremely seasoned at CMA that weren't as impressionable as a youngen like me, and would definitely tend towards attitudes that suffered customer service.

CPA flying isn't flown by the most inexperienced pilot's either. There is some serious experience there prior to being selected for those jobs. So I definitely think there is something to be said with regards to suffered morale at these outfits when you have experienced professionals being treated poorly.

I also believe that if a company has the right incentives in place, people will put up with less attractive WAWCON's and still be happy about their jobs. Because of the light at the end of the tunnel. Now tell me, who has the better incentives? A junior AC CPA pilot, or a junior WJ Encore pilot? I am genuinely asking, cause you could have some great discussion points that I haven't considered in that question. But with the information I have, an Encore pilot has much better incentives than an AC CPA pilot.

We all have a story rooster. So far my story leads me to believe that if you under pay workers, work them hard, and don't appreciate their existence, the majority of your workers will be disgruntled and won't take care of your company. If you feel this is an uneducated opinion, then I would like to hear your reason for why you feel your opinion is better. So far all you have insinuated is that I'm ridiculous, and uneducated. So help me improve my outlook for this situation by offering some insightful and educated opinions to consider. I'm hopeful you'll teach me a thing or two.

Where ever you are, Fly safe mate.