Current info on air north (ramp--> hs748)

[n00f1]

Hi all,

Ill be finishing up my mifr this spring and have a chance to get in on the ramp at air north in whitehorse this spring... from what ive read, they do promote off the ramp so i was just wondering if anyone knows how movement is to go from the ramp to the right seat on the hs 748. any help is appreciated

[Illya Kuryakin]

CONGRATULATIONS! After spending upwards of 50K getting your "pilot" licence, with all the trimmings, you "have a chance to get in on the ramp...."
What an industry!
Seriously, I wish you every bit of luck, and I hope you get what you want.
BUT
Does no one else see the fly in the ointment here?
The "milking" continues.
Best argument yet for an education.
Illya

[awitzke]

.....

[PointyEngine]

Air North is a great company, and they only put guys on the Hawker who have worked ramp, generally. The Yukon is a awesome place to live and work, and Whitehorse weather puts Calgary to shame pretty much anytime of year. If you're after quick progression to jump into an airline gig with Encore, etc probably not the way to go.

[Cold and Dark]

Air North is a great blah, blah.........Let's look a this a different way. If you spend three years on the ramp and three to five in the right seat will you be able to afford a 500k house in XY. If you want to be mid-thirties sharing an apartment by all means head north. There's very little upside in aviation in the north, ask one of 1500 in YZF.

[duramaxguy]

.

[Illya Kuryakin]

For 20K, I'll sell you 2000 hours PIC 748 time. I'm not using it. LOL
Illya

[shimmydampner]

I don't know why anyone would go north to work

There's very little upside in aviation in the north

Yeah, it's a real bummer making roughly 1.5 times the paycheck of a similar job down south while doing infinitely more interesting work, having the wife make about 2 times the paycheck of a similar job in her line of work, having a cost of living on par with or less than many major centres down south while never having to endure any sort of traffic or commute, having world class hunting, fishing and outdoor activities right outside the door, and living in a unique, vibrant community. What a drag. Not to mention all the Justin Bieber concerts you guys attend that we'll never get to see in the north.

[Cold and Dark]

I don't know why anyone would go north to work

There's very little upside in aviation in the north

Yeah, it's a real bummer making roughly 1.5 times the paycheck of a similar job down south while doing infinitely more interesting work, having the wife make about 2 times the paycheck of a similar job in her line of work, having a cost of living on par with or less than many major centres down south while never having to endure any sort of traffic or commute, having world class hunting, fishing and outdoor activities right outside the door, and living in a unique, vibrant community. What a drag. Not to mention all the Justin Bieber concerts you guys attend that we'll never get to see in the north.

Your attempt at retort helps make my point. A pilot's salary won't cut it anymore, they have not kept pace. Don't work the ramp hoping to just get by one day. None of my comments are specifically about Air North shimmy, if that's what's got your back up.

[powerbrian]

For 20K, I'll sell you 2000 hours PIC 748 time. I'm not using it. LOL
Illya

I'll sell you an instructor job for 20k. That's what you'll pay for the rating.. It's a similar offer but I think ^^^^ he condones one over the the other..

[PointyEngine]

I don't know why anyone would go north to work

There's very little upside in aviation in the north

Yeah, it's a real bummer making roughly 1.5 times the paycheck of a similar job down south while doing infinitely more interesting work, having the wife make about 2 times the paycheck of a similar job in her line of work, having a cost of living on par with or less than many major centres down south while never having to endure any sort of traffic or commute, having world class hunting, fishing and outdoor activities right outside the door, and living in a unique, vibrant community. What a drag. Not to mention all the Justin Bieber concerts you guys attend that we'll never get to see in the north.

Your attempt at retort helps make my point. A pilot's salary won't cut it anymore, they have not kept pace. Don't work the ramp hoping to just get by one day. None of my comments are specifically about Air North shimmy, if that's what's got your back up.

You really should check your numbers in regard to this statement. Most turbo prop drivers own their own houses, or in a financial position to easily do so in Whitehorse - I cant speak of YellowKnife, but I suspect not the case. Not to mention disposable income on top of that, a very much better position for comparable positions in Calgary or Vancouver. You can still pull in a better paycheck than a turbo prop captain in YYC working the ramp in Whitehorse, and as mentioned before, if you like the outdoors its one hell of a place to live. There's a reason Condor fly weekly trips from Germany into Whitehorse, and not Yellowknife if we're comparing northern cities.

[Cold and Dark]

There's a chance n00f1 doesn't like hunting or Germans. If this is the case, he/she should consider remuneration, lifestyle and progression. I'm sorry, I don't think the chance to work the ramp anywhere means anything.
n00f1 try to look a little beyond the obvious, you'll do fine.

[Redneck_pilot86]

The big problem here is people somehow think YZF and YXY are comparable. Having spent considerable time in both, I can say Whitehorse is better in every respect. Air North actually WILL move 200 hour pilots into a seat, and then into a jet. If that is the path you want to take, there are certainly worse ways to get there.
Doc, or whatever you are calling yourself now, don't make the mistake of comparing Air North to the likes of Wasaya. I agree with most of your views on here, but for a guy in a saturated job market there are certainly worse paths, and Air North takes care of their crews. Direct entry hire is rare, turnover is very low and a lot of the f/os own houses in town.

Your attempt at retort helps make my point. A pilot's salary won't cut it anymore, they have not kept pace. Don't work the ramp hoping to just get by one day. None of my comments are specifically about Air North shimmy, if that's what's got your back up.

I sense that you are a bitter guy working in the south for somewhere just over minimum wage. I've been in the north 10 years, and actually know every poster on this thread that is pro north. It isn't for everyone, but it is better for a lot of us. If your salary doesn't cut it, its time to get a better one. My salary cuts it.

Lets look at this another way. Ramo jobs at AN are in the $17-$20 an hour range. 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year gives you a $34000 income. How are you instructors doing, after shelling out for that extra ticket? How are you jump pilots doing? How about you southern BC Navajo pilots? Wasaya Caravan pilots?

[shimmydampner]

Jeez, not sure how or why this suddenly turned into the sh!t on Yellowknife sideshow. Sure, it's no Whitehorse but it's better than virtually every other northern town and a good percentage of the ones down south too. It has also had the second highest wages in the country for at least the last 15 years or so since they started tracking that sort of thing. (Fort Mac has been number one.) Probably the most opportunity in the north for flying as well, with four good companies with fleets to match whatever your goals are.
Whitehorse, Yellowknife, and lots of other places in the north are great places with lots of opportunity to get a start in aviation and also (if you wish) to live and make a rewarding career with an enjoyable lifestyle and good money. As for anyone who would tell you not to work the ramp, they are delusional people giving bad advice that is not grounded in reality. Of course, you should look very hard for an actual flying job before all else. However, they are very few and far between, so don't be surprised if you can't find one, and don't let stubborn pride prevent you from getting a foot in the door with a reputable company like Air North.

[icosco]

There's ramp jobs in warmer places. I don't know why anyone would go north to work on a ramp when you can do the same in Vancouver/Calgary/Regina.

I'd take a ramp job at Air North over any ramp job in Calgary or Regina. And as far as I know the only company that hires off the ramp at YVR is CMA and I've heard horror stories of 3 years. Ain't nobody got time for that. Then you go right seat for shit pay, whilst attempting to live in the most expensive city in Canada. My thoughts anyways.

[esp803]

If you like sledding in the winter, riding in the summer, hiking in amazing mountains, canoeing, prices on par with major centers in the south, zero commute, then you will have a more enjoyable life on the ramp at 4N then you will at most F/O jobs I've seen posted. And isn't that more important than if or what you are driving?

E

[Loads]

If its an opportunity to get your foot in the door in the industry then take it. By all means as some people suggest take a flying position if one comes available but that is a big IF.
I'm sure like most of us you need to earn income, so at the very least being on the ramp will achieve that. You will also gain knowledge of ground ops that will help increase your situational awareness as a pilot in general.

It certainly doesn't hurt to know how to tow, refuel from a drum, roll a drum, load a drum (snowmobile, ATV etc), put on engine and wing tents (especially if its windy), how to properly secure an engine heater cord, tie a line, de-ice, load an aircraft in general, change out an interior, clean out an interior, unstick frozen brakes, plow snow, use a herc strap, use a herman nelson, pop open cowls, change a glow plug, change a tire, etc etc etc. All this can be learned flying on the line as well but if you haven't had any luck finding a flying job, then it will add to your resume.

Most importantly if you do have to work the ramp, you will work with the engineers and gain a huge respect for their job and the overall operation of an airplane. Flying the thing is just one part of it.
If you start into this industry at 20, you will have up to 45 YEARS to fly! 1 year on the ramp to earn some money and educate yourself while you are trying to find a flying position or waiting for one shows more ambition than sitting at home waiting for a flying position.

Having an opportunity to do that in the Yukon with Air North, Alkan or anyone else up there will give you great experience, with great companies in one of the best places in the world. The key is not staying too long based on a promise, take a flying job of it comes up!
I'm just trying to point out the positives if you cant get flying right away, you will find your seat soon enough. Then next thing you know, you'll be left seat in your 777 having your nice coffee, wondering about how to get back to the Yukon!

Good luck.

[bcflyer]

Here is my question about working the ramp. You get hired with 200hrs. "No way you can fly a big plane with 200hrs" everyone says, so you slave away on the ramp for 1-3 yrs. At the end of it you still only have 200hrs but now you have somehow magically become capable of flying that same big plane?

Why don't people see it for what it is. A money grab by companies feeding off the career aspirations of young pilots. And for who anyone spouts off about the company wanting to get to "know" you and see your work ethic before putting you in a plane I call BS! People get hired directly into flying positions all the time. If the people doing your hiring can't tell whether or not a pilot will be a good fit then you need to find someone else to do it.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Air North WILL put you right seat in a hawker with 200 hours. This by no means implies that every 200 hour pilot out there DESERVES this position. How else do you propose a company decides amongst a large pool of applicants with no experience and no references who is deserving of the position? Just hire the first five people that apply, then hire the next five when the first bunch wash out?

[xsbank]

I've been saying this for years, (blah blah blah) if you are offered a ramp job and there is no mention of you getting checked out, flying empty legs or freight, you are being had. If ramping was such a wonderful life, locals would be doing it but the companies know that an eager beginner pilot will work harder, longer for less pay than a regular lunch bucket would. Therefore the better the job you do the longer you will ramp. That goes for any of the other jobs too like dispatching. An airline runs on it's ground crew and a wannabe pilot is a godsend to a flying company.

Don't kid yourself, a friend of mine spent 5 years at Air North contracting on the '37. They will hire whomever they need to get the job done. He got to keep the groovy jackets.

Just be careful, in this situation and in all the other ways you can get hurt at this career.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I've been saying this for years, (blah blah blah) if you are offered a ramp job and there is no mention of you getting checked out, flying empty legs or freight, you are being had. If ramping was such a wonderful life, locals would be doing it but the companies know that an eager beginner pilot will work harder, longer for less pay than a regular lunch bucket would. Therefore the better the job you do the longer you will ramp. That goes for any of the other jobs too like dispatching. An airline runs on it's ground crew and a wannabe pilot is a godsend to a flying company.

Don't kid yourself, a friend of mine spent 5 years at Air North contracting on the '37. They will hire whomever they need to get the job done. He got to keep the groovy jackets.

Just be careful, in this situation and in all the other ways you can get hurt at this career.

Not that anybody will listen to you. The lure of the carrot is strong....the brain isn't.
Illya

[shimmydampner]

Does anyone here actually believe that the number of vacant entry level jobs that a 200 hour wonder would qualify for, exceeds the number of unemployed 200 hour wonders? I don't.

[sledlove]

we have 2 hawkers left operating. suposed to get atr42 but can't because of tc. maybe next year.

[dhc#]

What's up with the recent Air North ads for 737 pilots, very rare to see....are they expanding even more ?

Also, anyone know when the 748's will be retired and replaced with ATR 42s ?

[Cold and Dark]

I have a better question. n00f1 are you now comfortably sitting in a full time flying position now that the company is hiring from outside? This thread started a while back and will serve as a great example, good or bad, to those who follow.