The importance of 126.70 calls....

[ettw]

Ya so....

Here we are doing our thing just leveling off in the low flight levels today in NDA....just about to reach for the tiller push to talk for a level advisory and my FO says "Hey...on the TCAS"

Sure enough there's a target coming at us initially showing 0 feet relative but decending.

We start a climb but not a RA climb because we visually identify the jet and we can see a trend indicating increasing vertical spacing.

The aircraft NOW makes a advisory of their decent into an airport behind us and the approach they are going to do.

I respond with a slightly veiled snarky commentary on the missing decent advisory and query what sort of TCAS response their system gave them as compared to our "TRAFFIC" call that we received.

"Ya, we saw you on TCAS" was their response.

Someone else on 26.7 responds "Thats the XXX (insert the airlines name here) way"

PISS OFF!!!!

Why can't people just do the calls in uncontrolled airspace like the AIM says and then we all get to go home at the end of the day without MORE stories about southern operators running around in NDA and screwing up and almost running into us because they are either running in MAG or not doing calls or whatever.....

And if you are the crew running the jet I'm talking about....i wrote it up because I have to IAW with our FOM due to the TCAS nature of the situation and left a voice mail with our DFO hoping he has a speed dial to your CP...and I suspect he does because this not the first time we've interacted with you in this manner....pleading with him to convince your CP to stop hiring IDIOTS!!!!

End of rant

ETTW

[mattas350]

Agreed, if it is who I think it is, then I had similar events with them going into certain places on Baffin as well.

[Cat Driver]

.pleading with him to convince your CP to stop hiring IDIOTS!!!!

We are in the 21st. century and we still have this level of pilots flying the public around in airplanes.

WHY?

[Meatservo]

.pleading with him to convince your CP to stop hiring IDIOTS!!!!

We are in the 21st. century and we still have this level of pilots flying the public around in airplanes.

WHY?

I will answer your question with another question:

What has Transport Canada or the industry done to improve or increase pilot training, selection criteria, or experience levels since the 20th Century?

[photofly]

Well said, Brother.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

[iflyforpie]

Hmmm if only there was something that could increase the quality of training, selection criteria, and experience levels...

http://youtu.be/ZMgyxqcdVYY

[complexintentions]

i wrote it up because I have to IAW with our FOM due to the TCAS nature of the situation

Could you explain what you mean by this? "TCAS Nature"? Are you required to report all TA instances?

I ask because maneuvering in response to a TA only is considered bad practice. Visual or not.

"The objective of a TA is to aid visual acquisition of an intruder and prepare the crew for a possible RA. Traffic Advisories (sometimes referred to as ‘Traffic Alerts’) occur more frequently than RAs, therefore pilots’ exposure to them is much higher and it is important that these alerts are properly understood.

Although ICAO provisions state that pilots shall not manoeuvre their aircraft solely in response to a TA, cases have been reported in which pilots have manoeuvred on this basis. The purpose of this Bulletin is to explain why manoeuvres based solely on a TA are not appropriate. We will provide examples and also discuss what can happen, in various theoretical scenarios, if a pilot changes the vertical rate or performs a lateral manoeuvre just because of a TA."

"No manoeuvres shall be made in response to a TA and TAs are not required to be reported to ATC."

Full Bulletin:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?fi ... 4273252733

Yes, it is a Eurocontrol bulletin, not NavCanada. But the focus should be on the technology not the jurisdiction.

I only mention it because if people are going to rant about training quality and "idiots", it pays to know what the correct TCAS procedure is first.

I do agree that proper R/T work is vital, especially in uncontrolled airspace.

[ettw]

Well given that we are operating in NDA below 230, its uncontrolled. Additionally with our slight climb we cleared him by only about 1200'. If we had not climbed the 600 feet...well you can do the math. I'd do it again

In controlled airspace, totally different actions are in play.

Cheers

ETTW

[darbel]

That's the Nolinor way....

[AirFrame]

Additionally with our slight climb we cleared him by only about 1200'. If we had not climbed the 600 feet...well you can do the math.

Sure. You'd clear him by 600 feet, or about the height of a large skyscraper. Going the opposite direction on the same track, he'd have to worry about your wake turbulence, but you wouldn't really have a problem at all.

What am I missing?

[complexintentions]

Well given that we are operating in NDA below 230, its uncontrolled. Additionally with our slight climb we cleared him by only about 1200'. If we had not climbed the 600 feet...well you can do the math. I'd do it again

In controlled airspace, totally different actions are in play.

Cheers

ETTW

Errrr....no. TCAS works the same no matter what type of airspace you're in. The procedures don't change. But it only protects you if you fly the procedure correctly.

When you start maneuvering on TA's, you may not have correctly visually identified the traffic as the TA target on the screen. It isn't radar. Thus you're placing yourself at risk of conflicting with other traffic you may not be aware of. You may think there's no one else around in that particular airspace - but wasn't your whole rant to do with people not making the proper calls to announce their presence? The 600 feet is irrelevant - if it had developed into an RA, you'd have had a coordinated resolution for both a/c. If you won't read the bulletin, which explains the rationale of this far better than I can, I won't bother trying.

But I wouldn't be too quick to state you'd do the same thing again. You'd just be wrong again.

[loopa]

.pleading with him to convince your CP to stop hiring IDIOTS!!!!

We are in the 21st. century and we still have this level of pilots flying the public around in airplanes.

WHY?

Remember Cat, just because someone meets contrails requirements makes them idiot proof. Don't even get me started on a rant in response to your question. Cause it will be 10 pages.

[fish4life]

That's the Nolinor way....

Probably because the call was made in English and they didn't understand what you said... Sure sounds like center feels the same way some days.

[J31]

Well given that we are operating in NDA below 230, its uncontrolled. Additionally with our slight climb we cleared him by only about 1200'. If we had not climbed the 600 feet...well you can do the math. I'd do it again

In controlled airspace, totally different actions are in play.

Cheers

ETTW

Errrr....no. TCAS works the same no matter what type of airspace you're in. The procedures don't change. But it only protects you if you fly the procedure correctly.

When you start maneuvering on TA's, you may not have correctly visually identified the traffic as the TA target on the screen. It isn't radar. Thus you're placing yourself at risk of conflicting with other traffic you may not be aware of. You may think there's no one else around in that particular airspace - but wasn't your whole rant to do with people not making the proper calls to announce their presence? The 600 feet is irrelevant - if it had developed into an RA, you'd have had a coordinated resolution for both a/c. If you won't read the bulletin, which explains the rationale of this far better than I can, I won't bother trying.

But I wouldn't be too quick to state you'd do the same thing again. You'd just be wrong again.

I'm glad that "complexintentions" brought up the discussion about the correct way to handle a TCAS TA (Traffic Advisory) and RA (Resolution Advisory).

A TA is to visually acquire the conflicting aircraft and to be ready to follow a RA. Should the aircraft get too close to each other, the transponders calculate an opposing vertical solution to increase separation. If you reverse your vertical trajectory in relation to a TA you risk going opposite to what the RA may command.

The danger ettw, was when you started climbing you could have got a RA-decend and your conflicting traffic a RA-climb.....then what do you do! Be careful and be smart, know the strengths and limitations of TCAS.

I'm glad it worked out for you and yes it is very important to follow uncontrolled airspace procedures. Hopefully this crew is brought to understand the importance of radio calls for separation in Norther Domestic Airspace.

This collision years ago taught some valuable lessons as one aircraft did not follow the RA and two large aircraft crashed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cberl ... _collision

[Liquid Charlie]

While we are on the TCAS subject - I have searched and can find no quick answer so I through it out to this knowledge base -- so a little history here - part of reduced performance after a failure in a jet is to select TA only -- and I understand it's related to performance limitations -- now leaving this world and revisiting my career routes I notice that all the "low performance" aircraft I have seen have TA only TCAS -- now the question -- why is this -- is it due to performance - category ?? --

[ettw]

Good points made about how we handled this scenario and J31, yes it might have been possible that the TCAS system may have commanded a reversal but given the fact that the TCAS displayed target was already in the decent and below us I can't imagine we would have received anything other than a climb.

That being said, food for thought.

Once in a while AVCAN actually contributes in a positive way to the industry.....

Just make the calls and we won't have this discussion again.

Cheers

ETTW

[ymxnewbie]

Howdy folks.

In Canada, and aviation all over, we have many people from various backgrounds, with various accents. While one pilot from our team may have made a mistake, which is being investigated by your safety folks, in conjunction with ours, it'd likely be helpful if you didn't generalize that this has anything to do with language, and, just to let you know, the pilot in question speaks perfect English.
Also, if you all think this is the Nolinor way, I'd encourage you to contact us in any case where you witness this kind of stuff. We don't like the reputation, and considering our safety record, I think we could all agree that our planes get people to their destinations as safely as anyone else in the business. Anyone with something constructive or legitimate to add, please contact us on here or by phone. We all go to work each day with the intention of coming home safely, and wouldn't want to be a part of any accidents, incidents, or scares. Let's all try to help each other a little eh? I'll post the contact details for our flight ops team here.

Nolinor DFO email address - ybergeron@nolinor.com