Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

[Cat Driver]

Same here Chas.

Normally I agree with your thoughts but on this one I do not.

The transfer of control in a properly executed PMA is safer because the PNF is already looking outside with no other distraction at limits and can see the runway coming into focus and thus determine if the picture is safe to land before taking control.....

[Illya Kuryakin]

Same here Chas.

Normally I agree with your thoughts but on this one I do not.

The transfer of control in a properly executed PMA is safer because the PNF is already looking outside with no other distraction at limits and can see the runway coming into focus and thus determine if the picture is safe to land before taking control.....

Circumstances alter cases. Here's a good example Cat. I've had it both ways. When in ANY doubt, "You have control...." If I'm comfy with what I see, I'll land. I don't like to chisel these things in stone.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

Missed approaches are good for the soul.
Illya

[eggy]

Missed approaches are good for the soul.
Illya

One of the greatest things I have read in a long time.

[FICU]

Well Charlie i have to disagree with you. I've been doing PMA approaches for 20 years and they are way safer than a pilot flying inside ( instruments ) down to minimums then trying to switch to looking outside and find the runway at the last second, and then switch back to instruments again to fly a missed if required. Imho.

Agreed completely av8ts. Head down at DA Charlie and you want to look up to find 1 or 2 approach lights? The Captain will be looking outside with no transition when the runway environment comes in sight at DA. Safe, efficient, and effective.

[Liquid Charlie]

Maybe the message got lost in the translation -- my b1tch is that PMA approaches with control xfer are a "poor man's" way of landing below published (with ops spec) minimums -- I personally have no difficulty transitioning from flying to landing at cat 1 minimums nor should anyone else since it's expected you do so to pass a ride or fly SPIF -- my point is improve the runways and let companies equip their aircraft properly (auto pilots - heads up displays etc to qualify for reduced landing minima including cat2 or even cat3 - oh ya PMA at any company I worked for was always captain's landing with f/o flying the approach -- 2 big reasons why I don't like PMA - transfer of control -- different procedure from non PMA approach - 200 feet is no where to get the "dance confused" - if PMA approaches are to be used then they should be used for every approach - regardless of wx so all calls and procedures remain the same -- no brain farts allowed and control xfer should become optional. IMHO any centre with scheduled jet service should have at least a cat2 runway -- Seems Europe got it right ---

[pelmet]

The Jazz DHC8-100 (C-GTAI, Flt 7795) was on approach to Rwy 30 at Sault Ste Marie Airport
(CYAM). The aircraft touched down approximately 500 feet short of the runway threshold striking
one of the ODAL lights leading to the threshold. The aircraft damage is being assessed, there were
no reported injuries.

[justwork]

Well Charlie i have to disagree with you. I've been doing PMA approaches for 20 years and they are way safer than a pilot flying inside ( instruments ) down to minimums then trying to switch to looking outside and find the runway at the last second, and then switch back to instruments again to fly a missed if required. Imho.

Agreed.

[teacher]

Well Charlie i have to disagree with you. I've been doing PMA approaches for 20 years and they are way safer than a pilot flying inside ( instruments ) down to minimums then trying to switch to looking outside and find the runway at the last second, and then switch back to instruments again to fly a missed if required. Imho.

Agreed.

Been doing them for years with great success. We train it in the SIM, brief it before flying it and it goes very smoothly. Only done on a precision approach where the weather it at or below minimums (approach ban ops spec) when runway in sight and landing are only seconds away from each other. The most dangerous segments of an IFR approach is a go around. Loss of situational awareness and spatial disorientation have caused many accidents during botched go arounds. By doing a PMA the pilot flying keeps flying and is prepared for the go around where the pilot not flying is prepared for a landing. The transfer when rehearsed in the SIM and briefed before the approach is smooth and a non event. More importantly it makes a go around so much simpler.

[Liquid Charlie]

where the pilot not flying is prepared for a landing

-- I know we can argue this until the cows come home -- It's just my personal feelings and insight -- it has bitten me where the xfer of control has hung us out to dry - specifically in "big" xwinds -- pilot takes control with runway in sight and immediately instinctively removes the crab to line up on the runway -- pilot induced G/A because he does not have the "feel" for the aircraft -- I always brief all options for landing

At the end of the day I'm just arguing that proper aircraft equipment and upgraded runways are safer and more reliable than a PMA --

[teacher]

where the pilot not flying is prepared for a landing

-- I know we can argue this until the cows come home -- It's just my personal feelings and insight -- it has bitten me where the xfer of control has hung us out to dry - specifically in "big" xwinds -- pilot takes control with runway in sight and immediately instinctively removes the crab to line up on the runway -- pilot induced G/A because he does not have the "feel" for the aircraft -- I always brief all options for landing

At the end of the day I'm just arguing that proper aircraft equipment and upgraded runways are safer and more reliable than a PMA --

Maybe. There are no doubt inherent risks to both methods. In my experience though the PMA has worked very well. No refocusing from viewing something 1 foot away to several hundred feet away and no head movement. What helps and is SOP for us is the captain shadows the controls. If the FO/autopilot has done their job all the captain has to do is continue the decent to a flare and landing. The aircraft is at bug speed, lined up and all that is left to do is flare and land. Unless there is a drastic change in wind there should be very little left to adjust.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I like to wear red patent leather cowboy boots when I fly.....pretty sure these guys weren't flying a PMA approach on this day.
Illya

[Mach7]

you are wasting you ink on this PMA discussion.

First off PMA's on the "classic" are only done on an ILS approach, and only when the weather dictates.

Secondly, It would most likely be a GNSS approach to the runway WITH VNAV coupled guidance.

PMA's are not performed nor are they approved for the CRJ or Q.

[Cat Driver]

PMA's are not performed nor are they approved for the CRJ or Q.

Maybe they would not wreck so many airplanes if they changed their procedures and allowed PMA's?

[Illya Kuryakin]

PMA's are not performed nor are they approved for the CRJ or Q.

Maybe they would not wreck so many airplanes if they changed their procedures and allowed PMA's?

Maybe they would not wreck ANY airplanes if they had even a remote selse of situational awareness?
Knowing you're landed 8000 feet down a 10000 foot runway, or perhaps doing a missed approach when they can't see the bloody runway? C'MON MAN!
Illya

[Liquid Charlie]

Little interesting side note -- Jazz has cat3 authority (qualified crews) and the approaches are hand flown - no autopilot -- with the HUD -- again -- get rid of the band-aids and make carriers and airports upgrade the hardware -- why is there so much anti-progressive thinking in Canadian aviation -- the "that's the way we have always done it" attitude -- I'm an old fuker but still I see that I have more progressive thinking than many of the "younger generation" -- I smell a rat and maybe it's how and what they are learning from the "good old boys" network that is stunting their growth -- not many progressively thinking airlines out there -- I guess people fall into compliance without questioning and drink the cool aid -- example -- how can we fix issues like fatigue if the new generation won't believe it's an issue

[rxl]

All Jazz CRJs and Qs are equipped with HUDs - hence no PMAs on these types.
The HUD is a great tool. With it and properly equipped runways, hand flown CAT II and CAT III approaches are a piece of cake.

[Cat Driver]

ahh, so they use HUD to Cat 111 in the CR's and Q's.

That is an all together different issue....

Back to the subject accident.....they did not have HUD did they?

They were not flying an approved Cat111 approach were they?

[rxl]

Jazz Classic Dashes (100 and 300 series) do not have HUDs.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Funny how, when something is "new and improved" it's called NG, and what came before, suddenly become "classic"? Guess it's not as demeaning as "clapped out" or "POS", or just "the old ones"?
Illya

[Canoehead]

It's interesting how some posters already know what happened on Feb 24. May as well lock this thread up.

As an aside, a "HUD" alone does not permit Cat2/3 ops in the RJ or Q400. It's the installation of an "HGS" that permits them in our case. They are not the same things.

[Cat Driver]

It's interesting how some posters already know what happened on Feb 24. May as well lock this thread up.

The information below is incorrect?

Flight 7795, inbound from Toronto Pearson International Airport last Tuesday, was preparing to land at about 6:30 p.m. A sudden snow squall caused the two-person flight crew on the Dash 8 to lose “all visibility,” said Don Enns, manager of Transportation Safety Board's Ontario regional office.

“It went from fairly decent visibility to zero in (a) very short period of time,” Enns told The Sault Star.

The crew was considering trying another approach when the aircraft “touched down short of the runway.”

The nose of the airplane hit a lead-in light.

[Illya Kuryakin]

It's interesting how some posters already know what happened on Feb 24. May as well lock this thread up.
gs.

So, they didn't land short of the runway and land on a lead in light short of the runway because they couldn't see the runway, ignored that pesky little fact, and planted her anyway? This didn't happen. Oh my. We bad.
Illya

[Canoehead]

As you were...

[Johnny#5]

Haha, this thread has got the old folks all fired up.....