Situation for Jazz New Hires

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Apollo
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#26 Post by Apollo » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:45 am

Thanks!

Hopefully there will be some YYC spots for us noobies! Gotta practice my number out of a hat picking skills!
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BingBong
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#27 Post by BingBong » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:13 pm

when I picked mine I was the third in my class. When I drew the next one it said 7 3/4. It was the oddest senioroty number
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CBcloud9
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#28 Post by CBcloud9 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:36 am

Has anyone received calls for the the March 9th Groundschool?
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Maver!ck
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#29 Post by Maver!ck » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:03 am

CBcloud9 wrote:Has anyone received calls for the the March 9th Groundschool?
Yup !
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dirk82
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#30 Post by dirk82 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:05 am

av8ts wrote:New hire FO pay scale from the MOU

Year 1---36.00
2---37.00
3---38.00
4---40.00
5---47.00
6---53.23
7---58.95 dash8-100/300 cap
8---63.31

The scale goes to 15 years but I couldn't get paste to work. Add 2% to the scale every year plus at least 10000$ in tax free meal expense
That cant be right. After 5 years you dont even crack 50 a year????? How are they filling gs?

Nothing like working your ass off to get an ATPL and then go make the least amount of your career after you have it. I hope they at least give you a small shot of lube before you bend over for this one.
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rudder
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#31 Post by rudder » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:06 am

dirk82 wrote:
av8ts wrote:New hire FO pay scale from the MOU

Year 1---36.00
2---37.00
3---38.00
4---40.00
5---47.00
6---53.23
7---58.95 dash8-100/300 cap
8---63.31

The scale goes to 15 years but I couldn't get paste to work. Add 2% to the scale every year plus at least 10000$ in tax free meal expense
That cant be right. After 5 years you dont even crack 50 a year????? How are they filling gs?

Nothing like working your ass off to get an ATPL and then go make the least amount of your career after you have it. I hope they at least give you a small shot of lube before you bend over for this one.
What Jazz is selling is that after 3-4 years you will go CAPT. For pilots hired in 2015 it will be closer to 7-8 years to left seat. Pilots hired in 2017 and after might be looking at junior left seat in year 4 but even that is not assured if the plan to shrink the fleet is accurate.

Prospective pilots can vote with their wallets and avoid this situation (ridiculously low entry level wages). Once Jazz realize that they are unable to meet the commercial schedule due to lack of new-hire pilots then market forces will prevail and the entry level pay offered will have to go up.
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Kosiw
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#32 Post by Kosiw » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:25 am

rudder wrote:
dirk82 wrote:
av8ts wrote:New hire FO pay scale from the MOU

Year 1---36.00
2---37.00
3---38.00
4---40.00
5---47.00
6---53.23
7---58.95 dash8-100/300 cap
8---63.31

The scale goes to 15 years but I couldn't get paste to work. Add 2% to the scale every year plus at least 10000$ in tax free meal expense
That cant be right. After 5 years you dont even crack 50 a year????? How are they filling gs?

Nothing like working your ass off to get an ATPL and then go make the least amount of your career after you have it. I hope they at least give you a small shot of lube before you bend over for this one.
What Jazz is selling is that after 3-4 years you will go CAPT. For pilots hired in 2015 it will be closer to 7-8 years to left seat. Pilots hired in 2017 and after might be looking at junior left seat in year 4 but even that is not assured if the plan to shrink the fleet is accurate.

Prospective pilots can vote with their wallets and avoid this situation (ridiculously low entry level wages). Once Jazz realize that they are unable to meet the commercial schedule due to lack of new-hire pilots then market forces will prevail and the entry level pay offered will have to go up.
Nice sentiment, but this will probably take years to occur.
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rudder
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#33 Post by rudder » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:55 am

Kosiw wrote:
Nice sentiment, but this will probably take years to occur.
With the projected hiring at Encore, Skyregional, Jazz and Porter plus the attrition rates to AC (which will be particularly significant at Jazz) there will be huge demand and competition for the limited pool of pilots qualified and able to fill tier 2 positions.

At some point, one or more of these carriers will come to the realization that they are not getting either enough applicants or enough pilots showing up for training on Day 1. Already happening in the US. And now signing bonuses are being offered as well as retention bonuses. Either way, the total wages paid at the tier 2 entry level rose as a function of supply and demand.

Perhaps Jazz will go the way of retention bonuses (i.e. extra $2500 for each 90 days spent on Jazz payroll). Perhaps it will be something else. But the fact is that Jazz is not offering anything more than a Jazz seniority number and a pay cheque vs what some of the other tier 2 operators are offering (quick upgrades and seniority numbers in the mainline system).

AC could have stepped up and offered more than just an interview as an inducement to prospective Jazz pilots but that did not happen either. And there are good jobs to be had for pilots with some experience at operators like Sunwing, Transat, Cargojet, Morningstar and others. What is almost certain is that status quo of $36/hr and virtually zero pay progression for 4 years will not prevail.
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Kosiw
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#34 Post by Kosiw » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:15 am

rudder wrote:
Kosiw wrote:
Nice sentiment, but this will probably take years to occur.
With the projected hiring at Encore, Skyregional, Jazz and Porter plus the attrition rates to AC (which will be particularly significant at Jazz) there will be huge demand and competition for the limited pool of pilots qualified and able to fill tier 2 positions.

At some point, one or more of these carriers will come to the realization that they are not getting either enough applicants or enough pilots showing up for training on Day 1. Already happening in the US. And now signing bonuses are being offered as well as retention bonuses. Either way, the total wages paid at the tier 2 entry level rose as a function of supply and demand.

Perhaps Jazz will go the way of retention bonuses (i.e. extra $2500 for each 90 days spent on Jazz payroll). Perhaps it will be something else. But the fact is that Jazz is not offering anything more than a Jazz seniority number and a pay cheque vs what some of the other tier 2 operators are offering (quick upgrades and seniority numbers in the mainline system).

AC could have stepped up and offered more than just an interview as an inducement to prospective Jazz pilots but that did not happen either. And there are good jobs to be had for pilots with some experience at operators like Sunwing, Transat, Cargojet, Morningstar and others. What is almost certain is that status quo of $36/hr and virtually zero pay progression for 4 years will not prevail.
Care to "crystal ball" as to a time line for the tier 2's to start hurting for pilots ?
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rudder
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#35 Post by rudder » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:26 am

Kosiw wrote:
rudder wrote:
Kosiw wrote:
Nice sentiment, but this will probably take years to occur.
With the projected hiring at Encore, Skyregional, Jazz and Porter plus the attrition rates to AC (which will be particularly significant at Jazz) there will be huge demand and competition for the limited pool of pilots qualified and able to fill tier 2 positions.

At some point, one or more of these carriers will come to the realization that they are not getting either enough applicants or enough pilots showing up for training on Day 1. Already happening in the US. And now signing bonuses are being offered as well as retention bonuses. Either way, the total wages paid at the tier 2 entry level rose as a function of supply and demand.

Perhaps Jazz will go the way of retention bonuses (i.e. extra $2500 for each 90 days spent on Jazz payroll). Perhaps it will be something else. But the fact is that Jazz is not offering anything more than a Jazz seniority number and a pay cheque vs what some of the other tier 2 operators are offering (quick upgrades and seniority numbers in the mainline system).

AC could have stepped up and offered more than just an interview as an inducement to prospective Jazz pilots but that did not happen either. And there are good jobs to be had for pilots with some experience at operators like Sunwing, Transat, Cargojet, Morningstar and others. What is almost certain is that status quo of $36/hr and virtually zero pay progression for 4 years will not prevail.
Care to "crystal ball" as to a time line for the tier 2's to start hurting for pilots ?
Encore has already found outside what happens if what you are offering is at the low end of the spectrum. Some action was taken (not enough) and apparently the application drawer has been replenished.

I see 2017 as a problem year for some tier 2 carriers as attrition/growth at AC kicks in to high gear. Jazz will be most affected although the Jazz fleet is planned to shrink which will partially offset any shortfall in applicants. What will really get the attention of Jazz will be recent hire pilot departures to non-AC carriers.

Only time will tell but over the next decade almost 2000 airline pilots will be turning 65 in Canada. I don't think that there are nearly enough pilots entering the commercial pilot training pipeline to fill the void that will result.
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Stinky
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#36 Post by Stinky » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:16 pm

Already happening in the US. And now signing bonuses are being offered as well as retention bonuses. Either way, the total wages paid at the tier 2 entry level rose as a function of supply and demand.
Have a look at this GAO report regarding the fictional airline pilot in the U.S. There's a reason why the airlines are offering bonuses but not raising wages.
I've cut and paste a line found on page 33
These new low wages at Jazz are here to say, best case scenario would be a signing bonus during period where attracting pilots is tight.

http://gao.gov/assets/670/661243.pdf

Improve wages and fringe benefits. Increasing wages will help
increase the number of personnel willing to work in a particular
position or occupation. However, employers are reluctant to do this
because they may be forced to raise the wages of current employees
as well. Further, unlike some other actions, once wages are raised, it is unlikely that they will be reduced later if hiring becomes less
difficult
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Flyboycanada80
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#37 Post by Flyboycanada80 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:12 pm

Say a pilot starts at Jazz today with his ATPL and about 3000 hours. He takes a pay cut and a big lifestyle change and takes a right seat on Jazz. How soon realistically until he gets an opportunity at the left seat?
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AllClutch
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#38 Post by AllClutch » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:09 pm

Realistic projections say 5-7 years. Could be less or more.
Be warned that the most junior captain right now is about 8 years.
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#39 Post by Flyboycanada80 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:11 pm

AllClutch wrote:Realistic projections say 5-7 years. Could be less or more.
Be warned that the most junior captain right now is about 8 years.
Ok so say an FO that starts today get upgraded in 5 years. Does he then start at yr1 cap payscale or yr5 cap payscale. Thats a huge difference and may be a deciding factor.

Also the new employees that start now are or are not on "the list" for AC. Are they just interviews or job offers?

Is there a seniority # you carry forward to AC if you do get offered and decide down the road to goto AC?

Are the current Jazz captains leaving Jazz or is the problem that the Captains have it good and are not interested in moving on, thus upgrades are slow.

thanks for the info.
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#40 Post by Krimson » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:40 pm

Year 1 pay, not on the list, and no carry over seniority to AC.
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Flyboycanada80
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#41 Post by Flyboycanada80 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:04 pm

Krimson wrote:Year 1 pay, not on the list, and no carry over seniority to AC.
that doesn't sound very good for new hires, why would anyone accept this?
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#42 Post by Krimson » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:43 pm

Flyboycanada80 wrote:
Krimson wrote:Year 1 pay, not on the list, and no carry over seniority to AC.
that doesn't sound very good for new hires, why would anyone accept this?
Good question. Jazz is not the same company it was 1 year ago. It is likely why they are hiring pilots with less than 1500 hours to fly their 705 machines.
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JoeyBarton
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#43 Post by JoeyBarton » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:42 am

The guys I see getting hired at Jazz right now are 703/704 Fo's with hardly any MPIC time around 1500-2000 TT. The deal is shitty now with absolutely no gurarantee when it comes to flowing to mainline. Upgrades still take forever and you'll be making below 40k for the first 3 years...Below 60 for the first 6-7 years on the new payscale. It is awful.
When you look at the current level of experience of new hires at Encore, Sky and Jazz I think it says it all. Encore and Sky hire in the 3000+ most of them with previous 705 experience. The new guys leave their own 705 operation for Encore or Sky, not for Jazz.
I would have a close look at those numbers, if you cannot attract higher time guys, then it says a lot about the current deal at Jazz.

Just my 2 cents
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#44 Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:04 am

Flyboycanada80 wrote:
Krimson wrote:Year 1 pay, not on the list, and no carry over seniority to AC.
that doesn't sound very good for new hires, why would anyone accept this?
The year 1 captain pay is because that's how Westjet and Encore do it, this is not something new Jazz execs thought up. Also fairly certain Sky and GGN are doing it as well
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CBcloud9
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#45 Post by CBcloud9 » Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:13 am

Average new hire time is 2000-3000 hours with ATPL's. Most with Multi-turbine Captain time but there are a couple in every class with <2000 hours and no turbine, but at least have them written and PIC time. Hiring is still on-going for foreseeable future. *Talk* has upgrade time pegged at anywhere from 4-6 years, dependent entirely on mainline hiring in the next 5 years.
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All DAY EVERY DAY
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#46 Post by All DAY EVERY DAY » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:38 am

What would be the first year take home for a year 1 FO these days at Jazz? Looking for some realistic numbers. Thanks in advance..
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#47 Post by volez » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:58 pm

I would say just under 2000 $ plus per diems ( 900 to 1100 $ tax free on top of that, might not get as much as a new hire on reserve more in the 700 $ ballpark if you do not get called all the time.)
Bases on an average of 82.5 h credits.
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#48 Post by razorblade » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:04 pm

36$ per hour, multiplied by 82.5 hrs = 2970$
Subtract 20% tax = 2376 net
Plus 800-900 per diems = 3200$ roughly.

In my first year, I never had less than 900$ per diems. Vacation months was closer to 700$.
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#49 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:59 pm

$36 x 80 hrs = $2880 then subtract 30% taxes

= $2016 minus Pension and Benefits (for family) ~$500

= $1516 per month

Then add perdium per month $1000 and subtract the breakfast lunch dinner coffee at starbucks and beer. If you're like me you can subtract $800, but if you brown bag it your grand total each month of:

Max $2516
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Teamflyer
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Re: Situation for Jazz New Hires

#50 Post by Teamflyer » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:44 pm

Yet, they still pay 10k more than the counterparts in the US, pitiful...
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