Encore - Not Worth It

[Flyboycanada80]

There are other good career flying jobs than just WJ and AC. Calm Air just scooped one of our guys, ( a real gentleman. They're lucky they have him )and the pay is better than either Encore or Jazz. No exotic destinations, but the benefits are pretty good.
But even the lowball pay cheques at Encore and Jazz are better than working a ramp for two years and signing your life away on a two year bond after that.

Definitely agree with better jobs out there - people are just too focused on the paved road to....riches....rather than the road less traveled.

But if you could go direct to Encore rather than work ramp for 36k - people probably wouldn't be complaining.

Unfortunately that is not the case, and a lot of the guys and gals going to Encore are 3-4k hour pilots with that 500+mpic (likely with lots of 704/05 and +12500 time) - pilots that were earning 65000+. They've invested 5-7 years or more of their life to take a huge financial step back for what some might argue is a better lifestyle....

*shrugs*

To each their own. Perhaps a financial planning/basic economics course should be mandatory with the CPL/ATPL application

Exactly this. The pay is justified if it is for a 250hr pilot just out of school. NOT someone holding an ATPL license. I cant even begin to express my disappointment in this company. This is far from a living wage in Toronto and Calgary. The yearly increases are insignificant. Instead of being a leader in the industry, Westjet has become a scab operator, paying as little as possible. There are only a few people that I see can accepting this position:

1) Your parents are still "helping you out"
2) You share accommodations with other pilots, usually a room in a 5bdr house with one bathroom.
3) You marry someone who pays the bills (you probably did tell her how poor you will be when you met her)
4) You have no self worth
5) You are still 21
6) You dont want to own any property (so over rated, why build equity?)
7) You think the pilot profession and your "ATPL" are worthless compared to an average car salesman or janitor.

**Not saying salesman or janitor are bad professions just require less skill and training.

Either we voice our concerns with some sort of actual association, or stop applying for these positions. Pilots give your head a shake. Think of your families not just yourselves.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Ah, the lure of the heavy tin! To strut into your double wide that you share with a guy named Cletus, decked out in your custom tailored leather flight jacket, in time for reruns of Duck Dynasty over a hot serving of KD and wieners! You're living the dream kids. Don't let these naysayers piss in your Cheereos......wait, Cheereos cost big bucks.....make it your no name corn flakes....
Illya

[Liftdump]

The cheapest double wide in CYYC is $200,000. The pad rental is
$711.00 per month so that is out of the question.

[Flybabe]

Ah, the lure of the heavy tin! To strut into your double wide that you share with a guy named Cletus, decked out in your custom tailored leather flight jacket, in time for reruns of Duck Dynasty...
Illya

Nothin' wrong with the Robertson clan!!

[sstaurus]

Just look at the 'Jazz New Hire Situation' thread... there are many still practically falling over themselves trying to get in there.

[schnitzel2k3]

Jazz NG = Encore except for AC now.

That is the ONLY reason people are piling over themselves - to climb up the extendable 'tiered' ladder to AC.

I much prefer Jazz over Encore because imo AC eventually offers more to pilots compared to Westjet, but I don't agree with what is happening with this redirecting everyone to the regionals to climb up an extendable ladder for another right seat at AC.

My favorite is hearing people justify the move. I just smile and nod.

S.

[Illya Kuryakin]

No matter how low the bar, the lines continue to form.
Illya

[sstaurus]

I blame too much genetically modified food.

[Canadianjetpilot]

Another sad turn of events for Encore.

As some may or may not know there was a verbal, quasi-agreement in play to improve work conditions at Encore, oft referred to as the 'Retention' program, but due to recent layoffs at other companies the pool at Encore has seen an upswing of qualified candidates. And so the rules of supply and demand have come into play. The conditions at Encore are not changing. The temporary improvements will expire in June and likely will revert back seeing as there is no longer a need to 'encourage' people to stay/apply.

Still have no scheduling consistency. Still pay poorly. Still unable to maintain the promised 50% flow through. In fact flow might not even make the min 25% mark over the year.

To top it off the Encore Executive is still resisting the Agreement process.

If you have a Jazz interview/offer take it. Your life WILL be much better for it. If I was 25 again and deciding which way to go, the choice is absolutely clear because 15 years from now you will have a better life at AC

[altiplano]

Buddy of mine who enthusiastically went to Encore from another -8 operator at the outset just shook his head when we went for beers last month...

Me:"are you going on the 37 soon? "
Him:" "

[FICU]

Westjet/Encore management: "hook, line, and sinker!"

[Maxpwr]

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[Darkwing Duck]

What I am reading here is the low pilot wages. News flash, it is just not pilot wages that are on a downward spiral. It is encompassing the entire aviation staffing community. I have oodles of experience in my field. I get the phone calls for the interview and yet keep getting offered entry level wages at companies I apply to. There is no consideration for anything I can bring to the table. Same ole song and dance, "we would love to have you as you have great experience and knowledge but we cannot pay you what you think is fair." Compare me to having 10,000hrs PIC and they are wanting to pay me as if I had 1500TT. Therefore I am staying in the salt mine I am currently at.

Everyone must start refusing the wages offered until the industry bigwigs realize we are not just scrapes off the floor used for dog food but a decent cut of meat. And I am not saying demanding the six figure salary but a decent fair compensation would be a start.

[Kosiw]

Just gonna add my 2 cents to the situation here...Take it from me coming from a similar start up operation (Sky), Rome wasn't built in a day. I know things might be rough going at the beginning of such a start up but things will improve over time. I've never met a single person from the Westjet side of things that was unhappy. Just have faith in the same folk that came from team teal to run Encore. They want you to be happy. They're certainly not dreaming up new ways of screwing over the Encore pilots. DaveP has clearly stated that flow through will be 50% for May and 35% after that. There you go, improvement from 25%. I just hope that the guys that joined Encore didn't do it to have a quick and easy way to the mainline. It may not be a year, it may not be 2 years but you WILL be at mainline. You've done it. The hard part is over and your seat on the 737 is waiting for you. Which is much more than the folks at the AC Regionals can say. They're looking at many many many years before even having the opportunity to interview without guarantees. So I say count yourself lucky. Focus on incremental lifestyle improvements at Encore, how YOU can contribute to them, and put the mainline out of your mind for the time being. Otherwise you'll just go nuts waiting for your turn. Good luck to all!

No Rome wasn't built in a day.....but it was built using slave labour.

[V2plus10]

Just gonna add my 2 cents to the situation here...Take it from me coming from a similar start up operation (Sky), Rome wasn't built in a day. I know things might be rough going at the beginning of such a start up but things will improve over time. I've never met a single person from the Westjet side of things that was unhappy. Just have faith in the same folk that came from team teal to run Encore. They want you to be happy. They're certainly not dreaming up new ways of screwing over the Encore pilots. DaveP has clearly stated that flow through will be 50% for May and 35% after that. There you go, improvement from 25%. I just hope that the guys that joined Encore didn't do it to have a quick and easy way to the mainline. It may not be a year, it may not be 2 years but you WILL be at mainline. You've done it. The hard part is over and your seat on the 737 is waiting for you. Which is much more than the folks at the AC Regionals can say. They're looking at many many many years before even having the opportunity to interview without guarantees. So I say count yourself lucky. Focus on incremental lifestyle improvements at Encore, how YOU can contribute to them, and put the mainline out of your mind for the time being. Otherwise you'll just go nuts waiting for your turn. Good luck to all!

There you have it, the type of attitude that makes operating while paying peanuts possible. Every pilot going to encore has without a doubt paid their dues already, they shouldn't need to be patient and poor just because you'll one day fly at mainline.

[Maxpwr]

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[Canadianjetpilot]

...Just have faith in the same folk that came from team teal to run Encore. They want you to be happy. They're certainly not dreaming up new ways of screwing over the Encore pilots...

-More correctly they want you to THINK you will be happy when you get there.

-Fact is, in their arrogance, WJA management, specifically Gregg and Ferio, knowingly dropped the WAWCON below industry in hopes the WESTJET name alone would draw crowds. That theory failed...at least until oil dropped and layoffs happened. When you're starving a dumpster doesn't seem so bad.

-They ARE dreaming of ways and they are actively facilitating as much. (i.e. deliberate stalling of agreement talks, a refusal to drop the failed scheduling software among others)

-You will be hard pressed to find a (non-management) pilot at WJA that supports what the WJE pilots are going through.

-And, BTW, your seat is not guaranteed. The only guarantee is you don't have to do a second interview. A very distinct difference worth noting. That and you can be bypassed by a lower number if your performance at WJE is considered "sub-standard".

If you are OK with 10-15 years at WJE, then 15+ years to a left seat at WJA then maybe it's for you.

To the pilots presently at Encore I apologize for maligning your company but you were mislead though victimized may be more accurate.

Any one going there from this point should be eyes open. You'll have no one to blame but yourself.

[Canadianjetpilot]

You don't take a job on the "hopes" it will someday pay a wage you can accept. You either accept it at the time of offer or you don't. Simple. End of. Let the laws of supply and demand do the rest. You evaluate the total package which varies for each individual, consisting of pay, benefits, opportunities for advancement etc... and you make your own decision. What you can't do is take the job and shortly thereafter come on AvCanada and complain that they haven't upped your salary to 100k and rolled out the red carpet to your Boeing seat. This is starting to feel reminiscent of a story I heard at Jazz years ago....Picture it, a pilot all happy go-lucky after his successful interview at Jazz, smiles ear to ear shows up for his first day at Jazz groundschool: "Anybody have any questions?" pilot raises hand: "Ya, when do I get to go to Air Canada?"

My question is this...have they lied to you about anything regarding your employment? Did they promise more money after a certain amount of time? Was there a broken promise about upgrade times? Flow to mainline? Bueller? Bueller? I don't work there so I don't know.

For clarity I am a WJA pilot.

Some say 'lie' others say " you misunderstood what I told you"...or more specifically " you're understanding of how many days you can work and what we pay you is incorrect"..."50% flow is a target not a promise, for that matter, 25% flow was the 'intent' not a promise"

See? Not really lying.

It's not about entitlement. It's about willful misinformation and manipulation.

[Canadianjetpilot]

I'll give you a specific example:

Encore hired pilots to work 70hrs min guarantee and up to 20 days. Now, we've all seen this before right? Anything over and above these items together or separate and you're into OT right? Wrong. Some worked 21, 22, 23 ,24 days but only blocked less than 70hrs. Guess what? No Overtime Pay. Nice.

Yes they did address this issue (after the fact and without retro pay) when the pool all but dried up but only temporarily and the pool is filling again. With no agreement in place to clarify these things its open season.

[Maxpwr]

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[loopa]

I'll give you a specific example:

Encore hired pilots to work 70hrs min guarantee and up to 20 days. Now, we've all seen this before right? Anything over and above these items together or separate and you're into OT right? Wrong. Some worked 21, 22, 23 ,24 days but only blocked less than 70hrs. Guess what? No Overtime Pay. Nice.

Yes they did address this issue (after the fact and without retro pay) when the pool all but dried up but only temporarily and the pool is filling again. With no agreement in place to clarify these things its open season.

I have a hard time seeing Encore forcing you to work 24 days. I can see it being optional, and in lieu getting 4 additional days off in your consecutive month if you did end up accepting those additional days.

Or no... am I reading that you are forced to work 24 days simply because you haven't blocked 70 hours? That seems to go against policy, no?

Further, anyone I'm speaking with on the inside seems to believe that the hours will not roll back to 70 hours. And that it only seems to be a concern by people on the outside of the company. Reason being that 70 hours is under utilization of crew, 90 is over utilization of crew, and that 80 hours is the median for any regional airline. Is this true? Are you guys at Encore literally not concerned about the roll back to 70 hours? It affects pay by about 6000 dollars / year for F/O's and 10 000 / year for Captains.

Lastly, how much does the ESP/Profit Share bridge the Gap? I have spoken to Encore pilot's saying it's not uncommon for Captains T4 to be in the vicinity of 90k in the first year and F/O's around 50k/yr in the First Year. Is this true?

[Canadianjetpilot]

"I have a hard time seeing Encore forcing you to work 24 days. I can see it being optional, and in lieu getting 4 additional days off in your consecutive month if you did end up accepting those additional days."

If you thought you were getting 4 days of OT you may have worked those as well.

"Or no... am I reading that you are forced to work 24 days simply because you haven't blocked 70 hours? That seems to go against policy, no?

It was a function of a number of things: maintenance issues, IROPS, crewing, deadheading, scheduling conflicts.

The pilots dug the company out from under a mountain of screw-ups to help out and to make a few more bucks but they had a 'misconception' of how their compensation was structured.

"Further, anyone I'm speaking with on the inside seems to believe that the hours will not roll back to 70 hours. And that it only seems to be a concern by people on the outside of the company."

Well if history is any indicator WJA pilots thought the cost of living adjustment would carry through after their 2009 agreement expired but guess what...they did not...because WJA had no contractual obligation to pay it they hung on to that coin. As it stands they have no obligation to the WJE pilots to extend the 80hr min.

"Reason being that 70 hours is under utilization of crew, 90 is over utilization of crew, and that 80 hours is the median for any regional airline. Is this true? Are you guys at Encore literally not concerned about the roll back to 70 hours? It affects pay by about 6000 dollars / year for F/O's and 10 000 / year for Captains."

Oh they are concerned alright. WRT the utilization you are absolutely right, it was terribly inefficient. Keep in mind WJ crew were not paid for DH

"Lastly, how much does the ESP/Profit Share bridge the Gap? I have spoken to Encore pilot's saying it's not uncommon for Captains T4 to be in the vicinity of 90k in the first year and F/O's around 50k/yr in the First Year. Is this true? "

ESP. For one they only offered 10% ESP to those people who were going to come to WJE at 80% industry comp to help build Encore. A pathetic gesture at best.

Secondly if you did do the full 10% and the company matched 10% you are now taxed on that total amount BUT are only bringing home 80% of that amount after tax or about $865 per pay-cheque or a whopping $11.77/HR ( whats min wage these days??)

[loopa]

"I have a hard time seeing Encore forcing you to work 24 days. I can see it being optional, and in lieu getting 4 additional days off in your consecutive month if you did end up accepting those additional days."

If you thought you were getting 4 days of OT you may have worked those as well.

"Or no... am I reading that you are forced to work 24 days simply because you haven't blocked 70 hours? That seems to go against policy, no?

It was a function of a number of things: maintenance issues, IROPS, crewing, deadheading, scheduling conflicts.

The pilots dug the company out from under a mountain of screw-ups to help out and to make a few more bucks but they had a 'misconception' of how their compensation was structured.

"Further, anyone I'm speaking with on the inside seems to believe that the hours will not roll back to 70 hours. And that it only seems to be a concern by people on the outside of the company."

Well if history is any indicator WJA pilots thought the cost of living adjustment would carry through after their 2009 agreement expired but guess what...they did not...because WJA had no contractual obligation to pay it they hung on to that coin. As it stands they have no obligation to the WJE pilots to extend the 80hr min.

"Reason being that 70 hours is under utilization of crew, 90 is over utilization of crew, and that 80 hours is the median for any regional airline. Is this true? Are you guys at Encore literally not concerned about the roll back to 70 hours? It affects pay by about 6000 dollars / year for F/O's and 10 000 / year for Captains."

Oh they are concerned alright. WRT the utilization you are absolutely right, it was terribly inefficient. Keep in mind WJ crew were not paid for DH

"Lastly, how much does the ESP/Profit Share bridge the Gap? I have spoken to Encore pilot's saying it's not uncommon for Captains T4 to be in the vicinity of 90k in the first year and F/O's around 50k/yr in the First Year. Is this true? "

ESP. For one they only offered 10% ESP to those people who were going to come to WJE at 80% industry comp to help build Encore. A pathetic gesture at best.

Secondly if you did do the full 10% and the company matched 10% you are now taxed on that total amount BUT are only bringing home 80% of that amount after tax or about $865 per pay-cheque or a whopping $11.77/HR ( whats min wage these days??)

So if I'm reading this correctly, pilot's helping the company out, assumed they were getting OT pay but ended up not getting OT Pay? I thought OT started at 90 hours. Wasn't this written somewhere? So unless you were going to hit 90 hours (or what ever the policy says) why would you expect OT even if helping out? One would think you'd know what you're getting yourself into if helping out and not hitting the OT credit requirements. I think it's standard anywhere I've worked where if you don't go above the credit requirements for OT, you don't get paid OT. Hence why when you fly underneath the guaranteed, you still get paid as if you were working the full guarantee. Am I missing something here CJP?

How did you do your math for ESP?

38.97/hr at 80 hrs = 37411.20 / yr. 20% total is $7482.24

7482.24+37411.20 = 44893.44 + What ever Profit Share Would be what's on your T4.

If it goes to 70 it's

32734.80 + 6546.96 = 39281.76 on T4 plus what ever profit share.

Or am I incorrect? Can you correct the math where I went wrong please.

[Maxpwr]

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[Canadianjetpilot]

I think you're incorrect as to how overtime works. If your contract says Max 20 days a month of flying and you fly 21 then you just worked on a day off and get overtime rate for 1 day. The other possibility is you work like a rented mule in 19 scheduled days and do 100hrs then you get 90 at regular pay and 10 at overtime rate. That's how it worked at every airline I've been at. If people worked past the 20 scheduled days then anything passed that should be paid at the overtime rate.

Exactly