Recovery from inadvertent inverted flight?

[Shiny Side Up]

How long was the airplane inverted before the Split S was initiated?

Probably like a nanosecond, if one was to film it, but probably seemed longer. I've had it remarked before that I can move a lot faster than I appear when a student does something unforseen, uncommanded and unconventional. I would suspect most good instructors, in spite of their sloth-like, glazed-eyed, troglodyte appearances, can do the same.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Probably like a nanosecond, if one was to film it,

O.K, so that confirms the gear retracts real fast when you are inverted.

Thanks Shiny.

[Strega]

Strega

I am starting to find your posts Extremely Annoying !!!!!

If by trying to be sure new pilots (and for that matter pilots who have been flying for sometime without upset or aerobatic training) refrain from their instinct to "pull" when inverted annoys you...Im sorry you feel this way.

[jodirueger]

Aerobatic Instructor here:
We teach students to "roll out never pull out". You'll lose less altitude that way and avoid risk of going beyond Vne or pulling full deflection beyond Va over-stressing the plane by exceeding G limits when pulling at high speeds.

[Big Pistons Forever]

most good instructors, in spite of their sloth-like, glazed-eyed, troglodyte appearances

Nonsense we all look like this

[Big Pistons Forever]

Strega

I am starting to find your posts Extremely Annoying !!!!!

If by trying to be sure new pilots (and for that matter pilots who have been flying for sometime without upset or aerobatic training) refrain from their instinct to "pull" when inverted annoys you.

Find me one example where I said that new pilots, or any pilot for that matter should not "refrain from their instinct to "pull" when inverted."

I never said that and never will. What I did say was what I did during one specific upset that I experienced. The specific circumstances of that situation led me to make a split second decision to pull through rather than roll out and it worked.

If you are going to continue to mindlessly extrapolate that to "BPF said should pull through when you are inverted" then there appears to be nothing more for me to say.

What saved me and my student that day is fundamentally not a pull through vs roll argument, it is the fact that if I had not had aerobatic training I almost certainly would have died. That aerobatic training allowed me to stay orientated and to provide the initial instinctive control outputs which stopped the incipient inverted spin and to continue to control the aircraft during the recovery in a way that ensured it did not again depart controlled flight in a secondary stall or exceed it speed or Gee limits.

[PilotDAR]

If it is pitching hard be careful not to pull to hard or the flight controls may stall. They are designed to stall outside of coffin corner ,to protect the airplane from self destruction from excessive g loading.

My gosh, ah no...

Some basic facts:

A stabilator flight control may stall - at very slow airspeed. Otherwise stalling flight controls won't be a factor in dive recoveries, because before a flight control could stall in a dive, the plane would have disintegrated from being overstressed.

I'll defer to a jet pilot, which I am not, but I believe that "coffin corner" is a term associated with high altitude cruise flight, not dive recovery. "Coffin corner" is a 1.0 G flight condition.

An airfoil/aerodynamic surface stalls at high AoA's, which are generally associated with slower speeds. As airspeed increases, the amount of flight control displacement needed to affect an attitude change reduces.

Excessive G loading can only occur at fast speeds. Flight controls become much more effective at fast speeds - which is why at speed, overstressing the plane is a risk, stalling the elevator is not.

Let's review some aircraft design fundamentals:

Va maneuvering speed is established for pitch attitude change (not yaw or roll). Slower than Va, gentle application of full nose up pitch control will result in the wing stalling before the G structural limit is reached. This protects the aircraft from overstressing, if the pilot flies with this speed as a self imposed limit. This speed has less to do with the effectiveness of the tail/flight controls, than it does with the ability of the wing to develop lift with speed. None the less, stalling a GA plane at Va is scary stuff!

So,

be careful not to pull to hard

, if you can determine what "too hard" would be without a G meter. Va is a reference, but that's still a risky approach. On the other hand, while referring to an appropriate means of determining G, if you're diving, pull hard enough! If you don't, you're not coming out of the dive, and speed will build up to a very unsafe condition. Once you've allowed the plane to exceed Va in a dive, you're only going to slow by pulling pitch - a lot!

Therefore, the best thing to do, is to assure that you do not allow a plane to be in a dive, in which Va is exceeded early in the dive. If you re in a dive, and accelerating, pull enough G within limits to prevent accelerating above Va if you can. If you have ended up up side down from anything like cruise flight speeds, and you are maintaining any positive G, you're building up speed fast, you have nanoseconds to make it better before it gets worst because the plane sped up too quickly to prevent.

This is why I like the roll out approach, as entering a roll from inverted does not put the plane in an attitude which will promote acceleration as fast as a dive does, and, you have a better chance of safely rolling out above Va. Erring with application of aileron and rudder in GA aircraft above Va is not as dangerous as getting the pitch control application wrong.

But all of this is on the edge of dangerous in any certified aircraft, do not take this casually, and don't experiment 'cause you read about it here - get competent instruction!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Aerobatic Instructor here:
We teach students to "roll out never pull out". You'll lose less altitude that way and avoid risk of going beyond Vne or pulling full deflection beyond Va over-stressing the plane by exceeding G limits when pulling at high speeds.

So you as an aerobatic instructor are saying you can envision no circumstances ever occurring where "you", not a low time student, you the instructor might elect to pull through. The only possible reaction you will ever apply is to roll upright under every possible circumstance ?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I am hard pressed to think of better entertainment than this thread.

Not to mention that it has some real serious thought provoking scenarios for all pilots to examine ....really examine and after examining these scenarios decide how they will recover from the situation being discussed here.

[Strega]

What saved me and my student that day is fundamentally not a pull through vs roll argument, it is the fact that if I had not had aerobatic training I almost certainly would have died.

About 95% of pilots that I fly with, that have not any aerobatic training, would have done exactly as you had- Pullback when inverted.So I would say your actions would be replicated by most- sometimes with a very somber outcome.

For some reason, when you are inverted, it is your instinct to pull back (or split s) to recover.. not sure why, but is the case.

[Strega]

Again I ask, when and why is it better to split s recover, than roll? How can a split s recovery result in less altitude loss than a roll and pull upright recovery?

Thanks

[PilotDAR]

These are un nerving instrument readings to see. They might be seen if you pull through from inverted at cruise flight speeds. I defer to BPF, who made a competent decision for the circumstances (which I think included very low airspeed), but BPF did this on the basis of really good aerobatic and upset training experience.



The G recorded, and shown by the recording pointer, was achieved at Vne, in a planned dive recovery. I pulled to prevent exceeding Vne.



You don't want to see this...



Or this....

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am pretty bored right now so what the hey I will keep feeding the troll. The alternative is doing some paperwork that I am really not looking forward to.

Strega

Pulling through as a way to recover from the incident in question, was not "my instinct" it was a choice. Of course to acknowledge that you would have to admit I might have actually known what I was doing when sitting in an inverted, dirty, stalled, full asymmetric thrust, about to spin Seneca 1. We both know that is never going to happen

Your comment about it is an instinctive reaction for 95% of non aerobatic pilots to pull if they experience an upset that leaves them invert is not completely true. I think the number is probably 100%. However telling them not to pull is basically pointless as they will not remember. IMO the only way for pilots to develop the appropriate skills to survive upset incidents is for them to experience them first hand in a controlled training environment. An intregal part of that training will be recovery from all attitudes and specific instruction and demonstration of the potential Dangers of pulling through. That is why I recommend all my students take a basic aerobatics course. Not only is it a lot of fun but it will also make them a better pilot and may save their life.

[Strega]

BPF... This was my point all along...

I have managed to fly 100% safely since day one (over 20 years), with no accidents or incidents. Can you say the same thing?

I do (hard to believe) know what I'm talking about sometimes. (Or maybe Im just really lucky

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF... This was my point all along...

Excellent we now agree I sucessfully recovered from a upset by using my aerobatic training. I knew you would come around if I argued long enough

[Strega]

My point was people need aerobatic and or upset training.

I have managed to fly 100% safely since day one (over 20 years), with no accidents or incidents. Can you say the same thing?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I am pretty bored right now so what the hey I will keep feeding the troll.

I happen to know who Strega is and he is far from a troll.

[PilotDAR]

I have managed to fly 100% safely since day one (over 20 years), with no accidents or incidents.

I heard that someone had done this!

With due respect (and there is some...) no accidents or incidents might not equate to 100% safe... Just sayin.....

I would never have the nerve to say that, my two shoulder angles (who... yes, have allowed me to bend metal...) would jump ship!

[Strega]

With due respect (and there is some...) no accidents or incidents might not equate to 100% safe... Just sayin.....

True, but if having accidents and incidents is much more "unsafe" than not having...

I would much rather lend my plane to someone that has not landed gear up, than someone that has done it 3 times.. just sayin..

[trampbike]

.
The only time I would consider the split S (F-18 or light aircraft) would be if I am in an extreme (60 degrees for a light aircraft, 85 degrees for an aerobatic aircraft) nose down attitude. Otherwise, roll upright and pull just outside of stall (or just enough so my speed doesn't decrease) maintaining just below Va.

Bad advice, please go try it before giving advice here.

[PilotDAR]

Strega, you got me thinking... New thread coming....

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF... This was my point all along...

Excellent we now agree I successfully recovered from a upset by using my aerobatic training. I knew you would come around if I argued long enough

My point was people need aerobatic and or upset training.

Thanks for clarifying that we do indeed agree.

[Rookie50]

BPF... This was my point all along...

Excellent we now agree I successfully recovered from a upset by using my aerobatic training. I knew you would come around if I argued long enough

My point was people need aerobatic and or upset training.

Thanks for clarifying that we do indeed agree.

Boy and this fascinating thread from me asking BPF about spin stories! Sure I'll take credit for sparking this sylvan learning session.

I am sure sold on getting upset training. Front burner.

[trampbike]

I have managed to fly 100% safely since day one (over 20 years), with no accidents or incidents. Can you say the same thing?

You seem to imply that having had an incident in the past automatically makes you a worse pilot than someone who never had an incident.
Don't underestimate the importance of randomness whenever thinking about stuff like that, otherwise it's easy to fall into some pretty lame fallacies.

[cgzro]

The only time I would consider the split S (F-18 or light aircraft) would be if I am in an extreme (60 degrees for a light aircraft, 85 degrees for an aerobatic aircraft) nose down attitude. Otherwise....

I strongly diagree with this specific statement. However the previous statement by this poster and the "Otherwise" are very sensible.

The reason I disagree is that on the aerobatic planes I have flown and my own pulling through from a 60 degree nose down inverted position would be done only under very careful airspeed and altitude conditions, for example I would want to see probably less than 1.2 vso which means i would initiate it more or less immediately from the pitch down otherwise the speed would be excessive and i would be well past vne and max g at recovery.

It is of course quite possible to pull through safely but at a given "gate" ie airspeed and altitude combination. This is more likely to be safe in a 60 nose up situation at just above stall and is most certainly not as safe when already nose down 60 degrees.

If there is further disagreement on this point I will happily post a video this weekend showing the difference and if somebody else wants to post a contrary video I would be flabbergasted to see it.