new 2 crew member rule

[LE8]

Does this mean companies like Harbour Air will need 2 up front? What is the minimum passenger rule that this applies to?
Thanks

[Illya Kuryakin]

Does this mean companies like Harbour Air will need 2 up front? What is the minimum passenger rule that this applies to?
Thanks

Haven't read it, but it would only make sense in aircraft that require two crew, and are equipped with lockable cockpit doors.
Illya

[cncpc]

Does this mean companies like Harbour Air will need 2 up front? What is the minimum passenger rule that this applies to?
Thanks

Haven't read it, but it would only make sense in aircraft that require two crew, and are equipped with lockable cockpit doors.
Illya

The media says any passenger carrying airplane requiring two crew. Lockable cockpit doors was not mentioned, but I agree with your statement that would make sense.

This is in response to a situation where a pilot with serious mental health issues deliberately crashed a plane. In this case, he felt it necessary to exclude the other pilot from the cockpit, but think about it. Pilots with these problems are not necessarily always in two crew situations, and it is likely this guy could have crashed the plane even if the other pilot was in the cockpit. It only takes a second or two to crash a plane if the suicidal person chooses the phase of flight in which to make his move.

The real solution is to keep people with mental health issues out of the cockpit. As others have pointed out, we have to tunnel down to whether working conditions may be a source of these mental health issues. This guy claimed that he was going to act against "the system".

I wonder if there are any statistics of how many pilots commit suicide alone.

[CD]

Interim Order Respecting Flight Deck Occupants

Under the Canadian Aviation Regulations, Part 7, subpart 5, an aeroplane must have a door between the flight deck and the passenger compartment and these doors must be able to be locked.

Under the order, Canadian airlines must ensure that a minimum of two crew members, which can include a combination of one pilot and another pilot, or flight attendant are in the flight deck during the flight. This would permit at least one person to unlock the door manually should it become impossible to unlock it through other means.

Effective: Immediately

Applicability: The order applies to Canadian commercial airlines certified under Part 7, subpart 5 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations carrying passengers (705 operators).

Complete text available here...

[lownslow]

705 passenger carrying flights only if I understood it correctly and they're still trying to figure out what to do with combi loads where the cockpit can't be reached from the passenger cabin.

[Donald]

CD didn't include this part, but it's in the link:

Applicability: The order applies to Canadian commercial airlines certified under Part 7, subpart 5 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations carrying passengers (705 operators).

[CD]

Thanks Donald....

[FICU]

Applicability: The order applies to Canadian commercial airlines certified under Part 7, subpart 5 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations carrying passengers (705 operators).

What about the people on the ground when the rogue crazy pilot on a freighter or on a jet repositioning with 1 other pilot locks himself in and turns the jet into an air to ground missile and targets a major city downtown core? I guess the Minister's knee jerk reaction didn't consider that and are only concerned with making the flying public feel warm and fuzzy after this incident.

Shouldn't the people on the ground be protected by all 705 machines requiring 3 crew members including freighters and ferry and re-positioning flights?

[privateer]

I am curious how CRJ200 operators with the one FA plan to implement this? Only 50 peeps but I am not sure how you guard the door while doing the switch.

[Donald]

What about the people on the ground when the rogue crazy pilot on a freighter or on a jet repositioning with 1 other pilot locks himself in and turns the jet into an air to ground missile and targets a major city downtown core?

Probably the same reason that cargo operators are exempt from the new FTDT regs.

[Diadem]

What about the people on the ground when the rogue crazy pilot on a freighter or on a jet repositioning with 1 other pilot locks himself in and turns the jet into an air to ground missile and targets a major city downtown core? I guess the Minister's knee jerk reaction didn't consider that and are only concerned with making the flying public feel warm and fuzzy after this incident.

Shouldn't the people on the ground be protected by all 705 machines requiring 3 crew members including freighters and ferry and re-positioning flights?

Why would cargo aircraft have lockable doors? Or doors at all if there's concern about one of the pilots physically jamming it?

[FICU]

Probably the same reason that cargo operators are exempt from the new FTDT regs.

We all know that is because if there is a freighter accident due to fatigue only a couple of pilots are killed rather than a 777 full of pax. But, now the rogue pilot scenario creates a threat to people on the ground in office towers, football stadiums, and other large gatherings of people.

But again, this is only about keeping the flying public buying tickets and nothing more.

[digits_]

I am curious how CRJ200 operators with the one FA plan to implement this? Only 50 peeps but I am not sure how you guard the door while doing the switch.

I am curious if any crew is actually going to obey this regulation. Is anybody of you really going to fly with a guy if they have the slightest doubt about his mental stability ?

It's either "Oh yeah, I think you might kill us all so I will stay with you for a nice chat" or "I am going to pee, be back in 5, I trust you".

[CD]

But, now the rogue pilot scenario creates a threat to people on the ground in office towers, football stadiums, and other large gatherings of people.

If pilots are the threat that you suggest, then the only solution is to remove the threat:

AvCanada: Which would be more dangerous?

[FICU]

If pilots are the threat that you suggest, then the only solution is to remove the threat:

AvCanada: Which would be more dangerous?

The pilots aren't the threat the Airlines are the threat to the piloting profession which may in turn create threats to the airline which we may or may not have witnessed in the Germanwings accident.

I'm mocking this knee jerk reaction by the Minister because it's nothing more than lip service to the flying public and does nothing to protect them. Does she not realize a rogue pilot has weapons in the cockpit to take the 2nd member(F/A) out if they wanted to crash the plane? What's next remove the crash axe from the cockpit? She even said CSA's could be allowed in the cockpit as the 2nd member. What do they know about the door operation and how badly could they screw up if the lone pilot became incapacitated. Remember the ANA incident where the pilot turned the rudder trim instead of the door unlock switch and created a major jet upset?

Are we going to have to train all CSAs on flight deck door operation now?

How easy is it to become a CSA and now we are to give them full flight deck access? What kind of psychological screening do they go through? This doesn't protect the public it creates another threat to them.

[Blue Yonder]

I am curious how CRJ200 operators with the one FA plan to implement this? Only 50 peeps but I am not sure how you guard the door while doing the switch.

Jazz has already been doing this for years on the DH8 100/300.

Blue

[Gilles Hudicourt]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/um78a6fxalb0g ... k.jpg?dl=0

Is a Transport Canada Inspector on the jumpseat considered a Flight Crewmember who qualifies as a second person, or should we kick him out on single jumpseat aircraft when we need to get up and take a leak, to let a Cabin crewmember take his place on the jumpseat ?

How about when my pilot colleague is jumseating on his holidays.....?

How about the crew rest on the Flight Deck program ? When I decide I need a nap during a late night crossing should I ask a flight attendent to come in and monitor my colleagues' actions while I sleep ?

What if he turns off both engines, the batteries, the ADRs and all three IRSs while I'm sleeping, and flips the aircraft on its back before going into an inverted 60 degree dive at night, will I have time to react and save the day ?

What if he pushes full down on the yoke at 400 feet in fog while putting the engines at TOGA and holding the priority push button in, will I be able to react ?

I wont. But at least no passengers will be able to see me out in the cabin banging on the door to be let in like Fred Flintstone.

Egyptair's captain made it back into the cockpit in time, but was unable to counteract the actions of his suicidal FO. Remember ?

What needs to be done is to make sure the guy next to you is sane. But thats not as easy and quick as going on TV to say the solution has not only been found but implemented.....

[corytrevor]

What about the people on the ground when the rogue crazy pilot on a freighter or on a jet repositioning with 1 other pilot locks himself in and turns the jet into an air to ground missile and targets a major city downtown core?

Probably the same reason that cargo operators are exempt from the new FTDT regs.

Where did you see this?

[BTD]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/um78a6fxalb0g ... k.jpg?dl=0

Is a Transport Canada Inspector on the jumpseat considered a Flight Crewmember who qualifies as a second person, or should we kick him out on single jumpseat aircraft when we need to get up and take a leak, to let a Cabin crewmember take his place on the jumpseat ?

How about when my pilot colleague is jumseating on his holidays.....?

How about the crew rest on the Flight Deck program ? When I decide I need a nap during a late night crossing should I ask a flight attendent to come in and monitor my colleagues' actions while I sleep ?

What if he turns off both engines, the batteries, the ADRs and all three IRSs while I'm sleeping, and flips the aircraft on its back before going into an inverted 60 degree dive at night, will I have time to react and save the day ?

What if he pushes full down on the yoke at 400 feet in fog while putting the engines at TOGA and holding the priority push button in, will I be able to react ?

I wont. But at least no passengers will be able to see me out in the cabin banging on the door to be let in like Fred Flintstone.

Egyptair's captain made it back into the cockpit in time, but was unable to counteract the actions of his suicidal FO. Remember ?

What needs to be done is to make sure the guy next to you is sane. But thats not as easy and quick as going on TV to say the solution has not only been found but implemented.....

A transport inspector meets the requirements, as does a collegue riding in the jumpseat.

However, this new rule is beyond stupid. As said above, it introduces new threats and fails to accomplish its supposed purpose.

[DanWEC]

Knee jerk to the first knee jerk.

[whiteguy]

I am curious how CRJ200 operators with the one FA plan to implement this? Only 50 peeps but I am not sure how you guard the door while doing the switch.

Used to always do it in a Dash 8, it can be done.....

And AC will have to go from 2 to 1 FA on the EMB....maybe we should go back to 1:40??

[Panama Jack]

Gilles, I think that you are overthinking this thing.

[pelmet]

What were the details on the Air Canada flight a few years back where one of the pilots had to be restrained. Anybody remember?

[wan2fly99]

Now they are going to mandate at least 2 in cockpit.
They should hire guys like me, a little training on how to open and close door and we can do flight in the cockpit and monitor.
Call them door knobs

Ad can read: Door Knobs required

I would be the first to apply

[thirdtimecharm]

Not to downplay the issue but is it reasonable to ask that pilots pee before taking off on a two hour flight? My experience is only on smaller aircraft with no bathrooms and we used to find a way to hold it.

It could be a pre-start checklist item.

BEFORE START

COCKPIT PREP.................... COMPLETED (BOTH)
GEAR PINS AND COVERS..... REMOVED
SIGNS.................................. ON/AUTO
ADRS................................... NAV
FUEL QUANTITY.................... _____ LBS/KG
TO DATA.............................. SET
TOILET................................ AS REQUIRED

Just a suggestion.