Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

[FICU]

Quite the article! Easy guess as to what "system" he was referring to?

[floydfrank]

I was under the impression that the Colgan Air disaster in '09 was going to to be a big wake up call regarding pilot proficiency, or lack thereof, and poor pay and work conditions, especially with low cost carriers. Apparently, I was mistaken..

You' d think but not enough people were killed and not high profile enough. Of course the Airlines want this to be a crazy pilot and case closed.

eXactly! - the MSM has spoken, the narrative is set - it vas da crazy pilot - dammit!

[pelmet]

Also as Illya said, why the entire world fleet isn't grounded this morning to have the cockpit doors REMOVED, ill never know?

It's called "risk management". Risk management is everything aviation.

You honestly believe that locked cockpit doors haven't been a successful deterrent to hijacking and terrorist attacks since 9/11? If not why did the terrorists resort to shoe and underwear bombs? Because the doors were locked.

Your theory has zero substance. Where's your evidence that the locked door has prevented just ONE hijacking? Just ONE.
Meanwhile, there have been over 500 deaths, due DIRECTLY to locked cockpit doors.
The 747 that crashed in Scotland, due to a bomb on board was well before the locked cockpit door era.
Your serve.
Illya

Think about it in this day and age based on the reality in the news. The idea that we should remove locked doors from airliners as if it would somehow prevent a pilot from crashing an airplane if he wanted to and yet the threat from terrorism is lower. You can't measure crimes that were prevented. Does anybody actually not realize this and truly believe that 500 deaths were caused directly by locked cockpit doors?

When I read the logic of posters like Ilya/Doc, I think to myself that if TC ever starts using forum posts to make a psychological evaluation, he will be grounded immediately along with a couple of other close associates on here as being analyzed as raving lunatics. And that is based on a long list of subjects posted about.

[flyinthebug]

You honestly believe that locked cockpit doors haven't been a successful deterrent to hijacking and terrorist attacks since 9/11? If not why did the terrorists resort to shoe and underwear bombs? Because the doors were locked.

Your theory has zero substance. Where's your evidence that the locked door has prevented just ONE hijacking? Just ONE.
Meanwhile, there have been over 500 deaths, due DIRECTLY to locked cockpit doors.
The 747 that crashed in Scotland, due to a bomb on board was well before the locked cockpit door era.
Your serve.
Illya

Think about it in this day and age based on the reality in the news. Thinking that we should remove locked doors from airliners as if it would prevent a person from crashing an airplane if he wanted to and yet the threat from terrorism is less.

When I read the logic of posters like Ilya/Doc, I think to myself that if TC ever starts using forum posts to make a psychological evaluation, he will be grounded immediately along with a couple of other close associates on here as being analyzed as raving lunatics.

Hey Illya...you and Cat`s "crazy" idea about cabin doors needing to be removed (and my strong opinion as well) seems to have some rather good company. Philip Baum also believes these doors need to go!

Here is a quote by Baum, from the article posted in this thread at the bottom of page 7...

Others questioned the wisdom of sealing off the cockpit at all. “The kneejerk reaction to the events of 9/11 with the ill-thought reinforced cockpit door has had catastrophic consequences,” said Philip Baum, the London-based editor of the trade magazine Aviation Security International.


Along your line of thinking pelmet, Mr. Baum should be stripped of his many airline security credentials & thrown in the luny bin too.

At least we`ll have some like minded people there Illya.
Fly safe all.

[iflyforpie]

Be careful..... I think you have to be certifiable in order to be on this forum....

[pilotbzh]

German Privacy Laws Let Pilot ‘Hide’ His Illness From Employers

Germanwings had no way to check even the basic details of Andreas Lubitz's medical history

http://time.com/3761895/germanwings-pri ... emailshare

[pelmet]

You honestly believe that locked cockpit doors haven't been a successful deterrent to hijacking and terrorist attacks since 9/11? If not why did the terrorists resort to shoe and underwear bombs? Because the doors were locked.

Your theory has zero substance. Where's your evidence that the locked door has prevented just ONE hijacking? Just ONE.
Meanwhile, there have been over 500 deaths, due DIRECTLY to locked cockpit doors.
The 747 that crashed in Scotland, due to a bomb on board was well before the locked cockpit door era.
Your serve.
Illya

Think about it in this day and age based on the reality in the news. Thinking that we should remove locked doors from airliners as if it would prevent a person from crashing an airplane if he wanted to and yet the threat from terrorism is less.

When I read the logic of posters like Ilya/Doc, I think to myself that if TC ever starts using forum posts to make a psychological evaluation, he will be grounded immediately along with a couple of other close associates on here as being analyzed as raving lunatics.

Hey Illya...you and Cat`s "crazy" idea about cabin doors needing to be removed (and my strong opinion as well) seems to have some rather good company. Philip Baum also believes these doors need to go!

Here is a quote by Baum, from the article posted in this thread at the bottom of page 7...

Others questioned the wisdom of sealing off the cockpit at all. “The kneejerk reaction to the events of 9/11 with the ill-thought reinforced cockpit door has had catastrophic consequences,” said Philip Baum, the London-based editor of the trade magazine Aviation Security International.


Along your line of thinking pelmet, Mr. Baum should be stripped of his many airline security credentials & thrown in the luny bin too.

At least we`ll have some like minded people there Illya.
Fly safe all.

This Mr. Baum is obviously some partially knowledgeable so-called security expert guy who likely has no idea how easily any pilot could crash an airplane at an appropriate time of his liking such as by pushing fully forward on the control column on short final or right after takeoff or disable the engines at a critical time. Or use the crash axe at an appropriate moment to create a single pilot cockpit. In fact, I believe that is the most likely scenario for the Silk Air 737 pilot suicide crash, captain got up to go to the washroom, CVR and FDR disabled, aircraft entered a dive despite the second pilot still in the cockpit. JAL DC-8 Tokyo Bay, co-pilot selected reverse while on final while the other two crewmembers were still in the cockpit. Royal Air Maroc ATR42 with two pilots in the cockpit yet dove into the ground. Look it up.

We have to accept that like a bus driver that wants to drive off the cliff he passes every day, a pilot who is insistent on crashing will crash if he thinks the method through thoroughly. But now the genius's want no locked door despite all the muslim terrorists we have these days along with the occasional psycho passenger. Creating another high hazard in this day and age of terrorism is extremely stupid and has not been thought through thoroughly. Having a flight attendant in the cockpit is useless when she is pinned to the ceiling or the floor during a maneuver.

I can see how some so-called security guy might not be able to figure this out but for actual pilots who continuously post on this forum of how great they are to think the same way.....amazing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilkAir_Flight_185
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_350
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Maroc_Flight_630

[sportingrifle]

Unfortunately the passengers weren't helped knowing that the pilot didn't have nail scissors or more than 100ml of toothpaste on his person.

My sarcastic comment is only meant to illustrate the stupidity of those rulemakers who are going to deal with this issue going forward.

sportingrifle

[onceacop]

This is well written, the lack of hours does surface here

http://www.nycaviation.com/2015/03/lurk ... Rd66yzu0y4

[Learning2Fly]

They might as well call it a terror attack.

He could have just walked off a bridge, or took his own life at home. The fact that he went through the trouble to wake up, get
ready for work, and involve innocent people means it was planned.

Keep an eye out for A320 service bulletins within the very near future that pertain to loss of control in flight symptoms.

[onceacop]

Why wouldn't you report, especially being someone from the industry?


BERLIN (Reuters) - The co-pilot suspected of deliberately crashing an airliner, killing 150 people, had told his girlfriend he was planning a spectacular gesture so "everyone will know my name", a German daily said on Saturday.

The Bild newspaper published an interview with a woman who said she had had a relationship in 2014 with Andreas Lubitz, the man French prosecutors believe locked himself alone in the cockpit of the Germanwings Airbus on Tuesday and steered it into the French Alps, killing all on board.

"When I heard about the crash, I remembered a sentence... he said: 'One day I'll do something that will change the system, and then everyone will know my name and remember it'," said the woman, a flight attendant the paper gave the pseudonym of Maria W.

I didn't know what he meant by that at the time, but now it's obvious," she said. "He did it because he realised that, due to his health problems, his big dream of working at Lufthansa, of a having job as a pilot, and as a pilot on long-distance flights, was nearly impossible."

"He never talked much about his illness, only that he was in psychiatric treatment," she told the paper, adding they finally broke up because she was afraid of him.

"He would suddenly freak out in conversations and yell at me," she recalled. "At night he would wake up screaming 'we are crashing' because he had nightmares. He could be good at hiding what was really going on inside him."

[scot]

I always found it interesting that the "health and fitness" forum was one of the least visited.
It's been quite a while since I posted, or read anything, on Avcanada but was interested to see what the comments were regarding this very disturbing crash.
I have my 2 cents worth to contribute. (rounded down to zero of course...)
Pilots are people too. Flying can be a stressful occupation. Our modern society (ultra-capitalism) has a tendency to treat people like commodities. No wonder people get stressed. Financial pressure/ time pressure/societal pressure/etc/etc. Underpaid/overworked/unhappy/etc/etc.
If you go to see the doctor you stand a fair chance of losing your licence.
Mental health is a huge topic. Often misunderstood.
We all have mental health "issues".
Show me the person that claims 100% tip-top mental health through their entire life and I'll show you a
......... delusional person? a "crazy" a lunatic? a liar? a very lucky, healthy individual?
My own experience, in a nutshell (pun intended?): got ppl in 2002, at advanced age of 41. got job with Kenn Borek, (350 hr wonder). Advanced to 3000hr wonder. Went to flight safety simulator in Toronto for training/captain's ride. Had super stressful week and lack of sleep. Sought medical help. Lost licence. (diagnosis of hypomania=bipolar). Too "crazy" to be a bush pilot. Jesus Christ...
However, maybe that psychiatrist saved my life. (Or maybe he just ended my career...)
Whatever, we are all different. We all have a responsibility to look after ourselves, and others.
Eat well, sleep well, take care of yourselves. If you are in aviation for the money, then you choose the wrong career, especially nowadays. (if you are in anything, just for the money, you're a fool...)
See, that's how "crazy" I am.... I believe that there's more to life than money.....

[cncpc]

Some good insights in your post, Scot.

Best of luck going forward.

[CpnCrunch]

Had super stressful week and lack of sleep. Sought medical help. Lost licence. (diagnosis of hypomania=bipolar). Too "crazy" to be a bush pilot. Jesus Christ...
However, maybe that psychiatrist saved my life. (Or maybe he just ended my career...)

It's perfectly normal to not need much/any sleep and be "wired" (as if you've drunk multiple cups of coffee) from stress alone, and if you keep it up too long you might get anxiety/depression. That is the whole point of your body's stress reaction, and the same thing (or at least similar) happens to everyone. It sounds like perhaps your doctor didn't really know what he was doing. In your case a break would probably have been all that you needed.

In terms of this accident, perhaps the guy was stressed/depressed. However I think there was more to it than that, because there is a big difference between wanting to end your own life vs wanting to take an entire planeload of people with you. From the news stories, it sounds like this guy was also psychotic and had possibly been planning something like this.

[Ruarmani]

It is always interesting reading your posts guys. But may I ask you (might be a stupid) question? Why there is always pilots rotation in airlines? Why not have a team of captain and co-pilot at least, who fly together all the time? Well, unless they don't like each other anymore. I think they will know each other pretty well, get used to each other, etc. I think it is much better than having different people flying with you all the time. May be captain of Germanwings would have much better idea what kind of a person the co-pilot was and this would never happen?

[complexintentions]

This is a letter that I did not write, that is making the rounds. I thought it worth sharing.

Dear all,

In the aftermath of the shocking revelations on the Germanwings case, I'd like to engage you in some discussion, on the surprisingly superficial reaction of the public, the media and the professionals.

While the wreckage is still smoldering, a third rate prosecutor in provincial France goes public on the CVR recordings. That's even before the investigation commission has been assembled. And in total disregard of international safety protocols, the promotion of airline safety, scientific methodology or even common sense. (That would make Spain look like the epitome of rigor and formality). Good departure from the hookers and pimps of Marseille. His moment of glory was well worth it.

Not so surprising is the regulators and the airlines hysterical reaction. Two crew members in the cockpit, even for toilet breaks. It's interesting how the industry is quick to react when it doesn't cost a penny. And how it drags its feet when it comes to say, toxic fumes in the cabin, inert gasses in the tanks, anything requiring extra maintenance inspections or the widespread ATC shortfalls.

But we seem to be forgetting the most essential question of all: Why. Why would a pilot (or anyone) break down like this. And what can really be done to prevent a reoccurrence.

Advances in neuroscience prove how some pathologies affecting brain morphology or chemistry have far fetched behavioral changes that defy our notion of culpability. Be it in medicine, psychology or aviation safety, it is never a good idea to look at an event in isolation. Don't we do that when there's a shootout at Mc Donald's?

Certainly, the industry needs to do some deep soul searching. And reevaluate its practices. How obtaining a professional pilot license is child's play; or the current trend in employing low time, low quality copilots straight into jetliners; or the poverty line low pilot wages (when they are not outright charged for flying); not to mention the grueling schedules; and foremost, the stress, the lack of support, the (over)regulation by bureaucrats, accountants, AMEs, HR managers, or anyone who take advantage of the industry and has never been on an aircraft and who are trying to regulate a profession they do not understand. Being a pilot has become a balancing act. If you have a problem, you'd better keep it to yourself, or else. So much for safety.

But of course, the (media fueled) public will have none of this. The mobs want to (posthumously) hang the pilot. All the while everyone is happy about ridiculously cheap fares.

Let's get out of this nonsense. Pronto.

[Meatservo]

It is always interesting reading your posts guys. But may I ask you (might be a stupid) question? Why there is always pilots rotation in airlines? Why not have a team of captain and co-pilot at least, who fly together all the time? Well, unless they don't like each other anymore. I think they will know each other pretty well, get used to each other, etc. I think it is much better than having different people flying with you all the time. May be captain of Germanwings would have much better idea what kind of a person the co-pilot was and this would never happen?

Pretty much a combination of things. It's not reasonable to expect management to manage relationships in that way, like you say what if the guys don't really like each other? Also it would create scheduling conflicts and lead to the formation of little two-man "cliques" that would develop their own ways of doing things that might be contrary to company S.O.P.s.

I have worked at smaller airlines however, where flying with the same guy for months on end is the norm, and it can lead to very close friendships and very effective teams.

For what it's worth, I personally feel I would work very well in that scenario. I don't think it was a stupid question at all.

[flyinthebug]

FDR has been recovered.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2015/ ... s-say.html

[co-joe]

I feel bad for the poster a few weeks ago who was asking about getting his medical back after admitting to taking ssri's. People are going to be more and more scared to divulge anything to anyone any more. And as a result the only recourse will be for the government to strip away a few more of our civil liberties in the name of the common good.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

I feel bad for the poster a few weeks ago who was asking about getting his medical back after admitting to taking ssri's. People are going to be more and more scared to divulge anything to anyone any more. And as a result the only recourse will be for the government to strip away a few more of our civil liberties in the name of the common good.

I guess if you can somehow hide it from your aviation doctor then you are okay, but once he/she finds out, it will be on the report to TC, that's been my experience anyway. TC already seems to be taking a heavy hand with medication, even though they are fooling themselves in what I believe to be 2 ways :

1) SSRIs are always bad. (Think about what can happen if someone doesn't take them )
2) They underestimate the number of people, including pilots, who take this type of medication

Depression/anxiety medications are here to stay and the real danger is misdiagnosis, not "oh my God, he/she takes a pill."

Commercial pilots can have diabetes. They should be able to take an SSRI.

[biatch]

Commercial pilots can fly while on ssri. As of april 2010 faa and tc adopted a new policy in light of advanced knowledge in mental health and the effects of these meds. Until then a blind eye and ignorant attitudes towards mild to moderate depression/anxiety were creating a more dangerous piloting environment than one where knowledge and treatment prevail. Each case is evaluated on an individual basis. Life events happen to pilots too. Faa estimates 10% of pilots take ssri which is congruent to the general population. Tc estimates 7% which is also congruent to general population.

Whatever was wrong with Andreas Lubitz is far beyond moderate depression or even severe depression. He is a mass murderer. A lone wolf. A psychotic. He is no different than a school shooter or a martyr wearing a body bomb. Very hard to prevent. A cop could go wild, a bus driver, military personel etc....

[jeta1]

Very pertinent article.

http://m.theatlantic.com/international/ ... de/388949/

[white_knuckle_flyer]

Commercial pilots can fly while on ssri.

Yes, but I wonder how over-reaching the additional medical reporting procedure is. And that's my issue. Although a commercial pilot would not balk at having to meet higher medical standards, I have a feeling that the additional requirements are sometimes over the top.

Personally, I take the smallest does available for a particular SSRI. It is not for depression but for tinnitus. I am a recreational pilot. As soon as TC became aware I was taking it, they required me to get a doctor's note every 3 months and they reduced my cat 3 medical to a 1 year rather than 2. In my opinion, they are basically telling me not to fly. When I fly only about 10 hours a year, it's pretty hard to justify 4 doctors notes and a cat 3 medical every year.

I consider this a case of overly stringent requirements that piggyback nicely on a long history of medication-phobia. It's funny how many doctors are so eager to prescribe medications and then equally quick to deny you certain privileges ( or rights? ) once you are taking them.

[biatch]

I agree. The requirements for each medical category as they pertain to ssri are clearly outlined.

Initially pilots are grounded until a stability period (4-6 months) is reached. Furthermore each case is individually reviewed (for ATPL anyway). If a pilot chooses to change dose or outright cease the medication, another stability period is required which results in grounding (at least 4 months). All of this is easily obtained info on TC and FAA websites.

The point I was trying to make in my previous post is twofold: firstly, many do not understand what depression/anxiety is and what can trigger it and that with treatment it can, in many if not most cases, be cured. Secondly, that Andreas Lubitz was, in my opinion as well as many others in the medical field, beyond anything to do with depression. He seems to have been sociopathic and psychotic. Severely depressed people contemplate suicide but not mass murder. They are introspective, not strongly egotistical and vain as some witnesses in this pilot's life have reported. He was also institutionalized at some point....he told Lufthansa he had had a depression, but I wonder if he admitted to the institutionalization and psychotic episodes (again, there is a marked difference between the two).

There are dozens if not a few hundred pilots in this country working for the most well known airlines that take ssri and do a great job. Some have ceased the meds and continue to do a great job.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I feel bad for the poster a few weeks ago who was asking about getting his medical back after admitting to taking ssri's. People are going to be more and more scared to divulge anything to anyone any more. And as a result the only recourse will be for the government to strip away a few more of our civil liberties in the name of the common good.

Ah yes. Enter paranoia. We never seem concerned about what condition the mind of the opposite direction Peterbuilt driver is in. He may well be totally depressed about his job, marriage situation, etc., but no worries there, mate! He'll miss my sedan full of kids by a good two metres.
But a pilot? Different can of worms. Even if he knows he needs some kind of mood stabilizing drug, he can't take them for fear of losing his livelihood.
We don't all have the luxury of being diagnosed as bat shit crazy by folks like Pelmet. So, in most cases pilots seek help "off the grid" from doctors who know nothing about what they do.
Illya