Dock vs. Ramp First Job

[bearitus]

Hello, I am one of the many CPL/MIFR 200 hour pilots looking for their first job. I am considering investing in a float rating (and possibly doing the 50 hour course) in order to look for dock positions for the summer. I was recently on the job hunt for ramp positions but it appears that the average ramp waiting times for a flying position are 2-3+ years at most places which in my opinion is too long. I am interested in your opinions if getting a float rating and working a dock with the right attitude will get me into a flying position more readily.

Thanks for the advice !

[SuperchargedRS]

If you have a CPL and want to fly for a living why would you take a non flying job which doesn't even require a student pilots license??


Take whatever flying job you can get, build hours and connections, don't waste money on a 50hr float program, get the rating sure, but 50hrs SES time is a good chunk of money.

Banner towing
Pipeline
Drop zone (good place to get 206, later 208, KA, twotter time)
Instruct
Fly charter overseas
Etc

Look at flying nation wide, look into fly in Asia or Africa, Thailand, etc.

If you want to be a pilot you need to take a job as a pilot, ink wet CPL I flew for a paycheck, never worked a ramp, dock or any other nonsense.

Now many a first job will involve you fueling, washing, and doing other manual labor as well, which is fine, just don't be a sucker and chase the carrot on the stick.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Take whatever flying job you can get, build hours and connections, don't waste money on a 50hr float program, get the rating sure, but 50hrs SES time is a good chunk of money.

I agree with the above statement because in many cases the training can be done by instructors who are just barely past being students them self's.

There is another option though if you want proper training for getting your first sea plane job.

There is a top notch program available in Nanaimo B.C. that is based on ability not on hours flown.

And the instructor is one of the best and highest time sea plane pilots in aviation.

[lost in the north]

I think you should try the course that cat is talking about. The last pilot I hired from Air Hart was taught by another low time float pilot with no operational expirence. Never got to fly the plane at gross weight, etc. I for one don't care if you have 50 hrs on floats from a puppy mill , I still need to spend as much time with him as a guy with no float time and teach him the real world of float flying. .I would rather see less hours but taught from a highly regarded float driver.

[Vern]

I think you should try the course that cat is talking about. The last pilot I hired from Air Hart was taught by another low time float pilot with no operational expirence. Never got to fly the plane at gross weight, etc. I for one don't care if you have 50 hrs on floats from a puppy mill , I still need to spend as much time with him as a guy with no float time and teach him the real world of float flying. .I would rather see less hours but taught from a highly regarded float driver.

I am the pilot mentioned here. I believe I am the only Air Hart student he has hired. When I went to work for lost in the north I already had a full season of commercial float experience. While at Air Hart I did fly the plane at gross weight several times and was taught by two instructors with operational experience outside of instructing. I have no idea where he got this info. I'm currently starting my third season flying floats commercially and my second season with a great family run operation in a great town.

I will not get into the reasons why I did not continue to work for lost in the north as that isn't the point of this thread. He is basing his opinion of Air Hart on his experience with me. There is nothing wrong with the school, they are very good at what they do.

The operator . is talking about also sounds excellent.

[FL7377]

The whole point of a ramp/dock gig is that you'll eventually be flying for the company you ramp for. So what do you want to fly? Floats or multi IFR turbines?

No right or wrong answer

[FL7377]

50 hr float ratings are cash grabs. Even if you have a float rating, your first job will still have to spend +5 hours in your initial training, and can sign off your float rating that way. Save your money! You have cash burning a hole in your pocket? How much did you put into your RRSP this year, TSFA?? lol

[bearitus]

Thanks for the replies! I agree that the 50 hour course is quite expensive. I am planning on doing my float rating and then heading for a road trip to see what is out there either wheels or floats I would enjoy both paths. I will also visit as many drop zones as possible to see if they have any work.

[FL7377]

Thats a good plan. Defiantly check out this outfit;

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 7&t=102570

[Chuck Ellsworth]

50 hr float ratings are cash grabs.

Some are for sure.

However the basic sea plane rating is seven hours and in many cases lack for proper training.

So saying all bush pilot training courses are cash grabs is the same as saying any advanced training is a cash grab.

For instance aerial application training, multi engine training, IFR training, and many other specialty types of flying are just cash grabs if advanced sea plane instruction is a cash grab.

A proper training course taught by a qualified good instructor is not a waste of money including sea plane instruction.

[SuperchargedRS]

Thanks for the replies! I agree that the 50 hour course is quite expensive. I am planning on doing my float rating and then heading for a road trip to see what is out there either wheels or floats I would enjoy both paths. I will also visit as many drop zones as possible to see if they have any work.

No worries

Check out these DZ job posting sites too, lots of US stuff but also some Canuck jobs

http://skydiverdriver.blogspot.com/p/cu ... obs-a.html

And here

http://www.dropzone.com/classifieds/Employment/


Blue skies

The whole point of a ramp/dock gig is that you'll eventually be flying for the company you ramp for. So what do you want to fly? Floats or multi IFR turbines?

No right or wrong answer

Get a job flying a plane, not a promise of a job flying a plane.

[shimmydampner]

For instance aerial application training, multi engine training, IFR training, and many other specialty types of flying are just cash grabs if advanced sea plane instruction is a cash grab.

Not at all really. Multi engine training, IFR training et al, and the associated ratings are requirements for entry into certain types of flying in the same way that 7 hours of float training culminating in an endorsement is required to fly floats. There is no parallel between a 50 hour float course and training towards a multi engine and/or IFR rating.
I personally don't believe the benefits of an "advanced" float course, be it 50 hours or otherwise justifies the cost for the average aspiring CPL, but if you've got money to burn, fill your boots. As for job hunting, I wouldn't bother pursuing float flying unless it is what you really want to do. Whatever you decide to pursue, do your best to find a PIC job, but don't be surprised or disheartened if you can't, and don't be too proud to work a ramp or dock if you believe it will get you where you want to go.

[Duffman]

Floats is by far the easiest way to get PIC time these days. After the first season of flying/dock work you're flying every day, anywhere from 300-600 hours per season. Even if your goal is to fly for an airline eventually (which is way less fun than flying a floatplane, but to each their own) it's a great way to get 1000 hours or so of PIC and then move on to an FO job somewhere else.

Many operators (including ours) have insurance policies requiring a lot more than 7 hours on floats so we prefer to hire people who did their entire commercial license on floats, or at least part of it. That way we don't need to babysit them for the entire season while they fly empty legs to get the required amount of time to carry passengers.

There are lots of places that will put you on a 185 with 7 hours though. So it's definitely worth a go.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Floats is by far the easiest way to get PIC time these days.

There are lots of places that will put you on a 185 with 7 hours though. So it's definitely worth a go.

Really? I'm sorry, but 7 hours on floats would not satisfy most insurers minimum requirements.

Please enlighten the newcomers to our facet of the industry where one can get hired directly on a buck 80/85 with a bare bones seaplane rating because I know of none! (Heck I co-own such a machine and I wouldn't let anyone with a 7 hour rating near my machine solo!)

[Duffman]

Sandy Lake Seaplane, Kenora Air, River Air, Chimo, Adventure Air, Atikokan Aero.

I'm not recommending that someone who wants a float job only gets a 7 hour rating but it is possible.

[SuperchargedRS]

Floats is by far the easiest way to get PIC time these days.

There are lots of places that will put you on a 185 with 7 hours though. So it's definitely worth a go.

Really? I'm sorry, but 7 hours on floats would not satisfy most insurers minimum requirements.

Please enlighten the newcomers to our facet of the industry where one can get hired directly on a buck 80/85 with a bare bones seaplane rating because I know of none! (Heck I co-own such a machine and I wouldn't let anyone with a 7 hour rating near my machine solo!)

That.

[Duffman]

^ That was a useful reply. I just posted a list of operators that do exactly what I said.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Really? I'm sorry, but 7 hours on floats would not satisfy most insurers minimum requirements.

Minimum requirements for what?

Liability coverage or hull coverage, or both?

And what are the minimum requirements?

[TeePeeCreeper]

I'm sorry Duffman, but you can add every single 180/85/206 etc, etc.. operator in Canada to that list you provided as well.

My point is that 7 hours on floats isn't enough to be "safe" in an commercially (or privately for the matter!) operational environment.
Yes, the 7 hour float rated candidate is "qualified" to theoretically fly such an aircraft according to the regulator. However in all reality you are simply not safe or competent to do so and the insurance companies know this damn well.

There is a big difference between listing operators whom have been known to hire seaplane pilots with minimum qualifications and slowly transition them to the left seat but to think that any of those operators you listed are simply taking those new inexperienced hires and saying "here ya go, take the keys and off you go" just isn't true.

.,

I'm not an advocate of 50 hour programs as most of them are taught by low time seaplane pilots with little or no operational experience.
Before I started flying seaplanes for a living but after obtaining my basic 7 hour endorsement, my insurance company required 25 hours of dual instruction with someone whom they approved of and then required me to fly 25 hours on my own before I could get passenger liability coverage. This was over 10 years ago (on a C180 which I still own) and I doubt that such requirements have been lessened since then. Surely having been affiliated with the good people at "Lloyds of London" you know a bit about who and how they indemnify those whom they see fit to offer any kind of insurance coverage.

All the best,
TPC

[Duffman]

With all due respect you are incorrect.

I agree with you that 7 hours is not enough but the operators i've listed have hired 7 hour float pilots, done their required 3 hours of training and cut them loose. I have personally seen it.

I do not think it's a good idea and I have an understanding of my current employers insurance policy since I do the hiring but I don't know what insurance other operators have. We would never cut a pilot that inexperienced loose with one of our planes. When I got my first job I had a few hundred on floats and sometimes I still felt like I didn't really know what I was doing.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

and I doubt that such requirements have been lessened since then. Surely having been affiliated with the good people at "Lloyds of London" you know a bit about who and how they indemnify those whom they see fit to offer any kind of insurance coverage.

All the best,
TPC

For sure I do, insurance coverage is based on risk.

New 7 hour sea plane pilots are very high risk.

That is why I am advocating these new sea plane pilots get further training with a reputable sea plane teacher.

The guy in Nanaimo that I am recommending is one of the best in the business.

And this area has it all as far as flying conditions goes, tidal waters, very big mountains and weird winds as well as high altitude lakes.

If I had a son or daughter who wanted sea plane training he would be right on the top of my list.

Remember I do not post under an assumed name and I still care about my reputation as a pilot so I do not make these statements lightly.

[C-FDPB]

When I got my first job I had a few hundred on floats and sometimes I still felt like I didn't really know what I was doing.

That's pretty lucky to have been able to rack up 100+ hrs on floats before even getting a gig. I was lucky enough in that I could build up some float PIC by ferrying floatplanes around. What are some ways you or anyone else for that matter built up time before getting a job?

[imac0960]

The companies listed above more than likely have open pilot policies. Those are policies that are more expensive but allow companies to have low time guys in the left seat when the chief pilot deems them competent.

[Duffman]

When I got my first job I had a few hundred on floats and sometimes I still felt like I didn't really know what I was doing.

That's pretty lucky to have been able to rack up 100+ hrs on floats before even getting a gig. I was lucky enough in that I could build up some float PIC by ferrying floatplanes around. What are some ways you or anyone else for that matter built up time before getting a job?

I did my entire private and commercial license on floats. My PPL was SES (single engine seaplane) so I wasn't even qualified to fly a plane with wheels. The only time I flew on wheels for my training was the 10 hours at night and a few hours doing spins, and then the spin portion of the flight test.

To be honest though, last year when the float season ended I applied for a few jobs flying small singles on wheels to get me through the winter and none of them were interested in me because of my lack of experience on wheels. Now i'm flying an amphib caravan so when I go runway to runway I log it as if i'm on wheels. Pros and cons I guess...