iflyforpie wrote:
And yeah.. maybe I don't know what its like since I got my CPL at 25... but I lost my father to alcoholism at 17 and went straight from high school to working menials jobs and getting a trade so I could pursue my dream.. and picked up a wife, house, and had a child before I got my first flying job at 25 with ZERO connections in aviation... ....so if I can do it, you can too.
Sorry to hear that man. I didn't mean to make me sound like I was the only person to have gone through this kind of thing or cheapen other peoples experiences, it was just back ground info. I had actually started looking into Montair in Vancouver before he got sick and it got put aside because the priorities changed. Heck i think I still have the info pack they sent me somewhere. It was just a bad time all around.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by doan_1 on Fri May 01, 2015 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Humbly, I would submit that very, very few on this continent have any concept of actual, real poverty.
I'm not diminishing the poster's difficult experiences.
But the first (but not the only) time I saw, in person, children living at the dump, whose job it was to sift through the garbage to uncover a piece of scrap to sell or trade for food, it changed my perspective, for good. And there are millions of such children.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by Rookie50 on Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hear hear Rookie50, I'm vacationing in central China this week, and I doubt most of the people I passed during my morning walk have seen a plane more than a few times, much less flown in one. To fly it would be beyond their comprehension.
It is of course, our collective purpose here to promote aviation, though the structure we have created for ourselves as a society has build in large cost, to support the freedom to fly. Someone has to pay that cost, and it seems only fair that it would be the user.
This is not intended to discourage, or convey elitism, it's just the way it is. You gotta pay your way. 30 years ago people weretrying to get me to partner to own planes I could not afford. Instead, 28 years ago, i bought a 150, which I could barely afford - and I still own it... And, I have no partners, so it is ready for me when I want it.
Shiny Side Up wrote:Not sure if this has occurred to you or not, but even if you do finish your CPL, do you think you're going to be in a better spot? If you're this hard up financially you got to look at getting your head above water before going further. You already have hinted at what you need to do - get a trade. And contrary to what the corporate people would like to tell us, there's still a lot of work out there for anyone with a strong back. Right now, you have no mobility even if you had your CPL, which is the trouble I'm finding with hiring people. No one can afford to move to work. Moving is a big financial hit, when you got to put down a damage deposit, set up all your other bills and pay for gas to transport yourself. For any new pilots I'd recommend that when you're job searching you'd better have $5K in your pocket so you can take advantage of any offers. Also remembering that its going to be very lean when you start a new job until you get your first paycheck in hand.
Not sure why I have to give other people's children lessons in life.
+1. I can't add much to SSU's wise comments.
+1 Well said, go make some cash and catch up later!
Now I'm no expert but from the advice I have gotten on avcanada. I would encourage you to get a trade certification. That's what I am doing. There is always work in the trades. Imagine this yiu get furloughed or anything happens where you don't have a flying job anymore. You have a trade certification to fall back on you can work anywhere for a minimum 40 dollars an hour. if you can work on cars or anything like that try to get into heavy duty mechanics. It's pretty awesome pay is good and like I said once you have the jman ticket you are set up for the future. Plus you can do side jobs repairing people's cars and that'll give you extra income for flying hours or whatever you chose.
danishroy wrote:Now I'm no expert but from the advice I have gotten on avcanada. I would encourage you to get a trade certification. That's what I am doing. There is always work in the trades. Imagine this yiu get furloughed or anything happens where you don't have a flying job anymore. You have a trade certification to fall back on you can work anywhere for a minimum 40 dollars an hour. if you can work on cars or anything like that try to get into heavy duty mechanics. It's pretty awesome pay is good and like I said once you have the jman ticket you are set up for the future. Plus you can do side jobs repairing people's cars and that'll give you extra income for flying hours or whatever you chose.
Major +1
This is what I'm doing too, Im a power engineer by trade and finance flying thru my salary. If you can do it, its probably the best way to go. You won't go in as much, or any debt at all, and like everyone has said here, you have something to fall back on. PLUS The whole time you're working and making money to support flying, you're also gaining valuable experience in the trade world.
Bottom line, if it is doable, find a trade, and use the earnings from that trade to help you fly. It'll minimize your debt load.
We have had several individuals working for the company I fly for who came out of school with a horrendous amount of debt and found out that with a beginning pilot job they were living below the poverty line and still couldn't pay off their debt. Most ended up quitting flying and going to get training in another field. A couple joined the military, and one found work in the oil fields to pay off his debt while still flying very part time. Having said that, some of our folks continued on to the airlines, but I don't know if any of them had a full debt load to start with.
Not to be negative, but the harsh reality is, getting that piece of paper that says you're now legal to fly does not solve your financial problems. Even getting a job with said piece of paper doesn't solve them. There are probably some jobs for new pilots somewhere in Canada that pay a reasonable salary, but there are also those that don't and there's no guarantee that you'll get either. You're already in need of catching up - get your finances in order and your debt under control and then return to training
For what it is worth, I believe you will find little traction on this site getting the funding you want. Pilots in general tend to be type A, problem solvers, and are proud of what they have achieved with their own determination.
I will echo the sentiments around here, your problem is not borne of self imposed timelines, age, etc but fundamentally your plan is flawed. In my opinion you need a serious reset, to sit back and build a plan to get back on track financially and mentally. Pilots are self starters, need to think outside of the box, but most importantly, need a plan. E-begging on the internet seems to me, the easy way out and lacks any real motivation.
I can appreciate the troubles you have had and sympathize with your difficult path however to some degree we have all been there. It is how you deal with it that makes you the stronger person. I too have had real difficulties starting out which I don't feel a need to share but the difference is I sat back one night and gave myself a kick in the ass, sort to speak. I realized I needed to dig my self out of my hole before continuing, to build a foundation before the framing.
Your 'plan' to finish your cpl does not do enough as other posters have said. You require the tools to be ready for the aviation workforce and a cpl ain't gonna cut, not even close. Even with a bare bones float rating you will have to work hard, network, and possibly travel to find it. The road to aviation success is littered with stories of failure, mostly because people jump in haphazardly. This may be a good thing because we don't need any more half-assed pilots in the sky. Not saying this is you, just saying.
You mention that Victoria is challenging for employment, I submit perhaps a change in scenery may be in order. I hear lots of sob stories about low income in Banff but that is the price you pay for living in Lotus land. If that means moving to a town that is less attractive and working hard while completing your goals is what it takes, Do it. You will thank yourself and your pride in completing your objective will be tenfold.
I am sorry but I cannot contribute to your e-begging site out of principal. I can offer advice and hope you "hit the reset button" and find success.
Thank you PilotDAR. If you couldn't tell, e-begging is something that I have little stomach for.
In these days of internet begging and tip jars at every convenience store, a little encouragement to pull yourself up by your boot straps couldn't hurt.
$12/hour is nothing. Why not start working the dock now for one of the float operators? One that's reasonable with a 182 or similar. Showing a hard work ethic and working the dock are something you'll have to do anyways. Perhaps they'll give you accomodation. If money isn't in the cards, a roadtrip isn't feasable, but you're already in a great location for at least a few opportunities. Further, if you're working the dock, you can only work so many hours. The mention of a job at a bar or the like is gold. Cash is needed and finances need to be in order for sure.
The reason I mention this is following what was said above. Walking away with the CPL in hand means nothing, but having the connections and proving yourself early may pay off. Who knows, for the right operator they may discount your flying (flight schools commonly do such things). That way, when you do follow through with this, you don't have to sit another year or two on a dock (or ramp if that's your choosing) going through this making the same $10, or $12, whatever.
Remember. Don't work hard, work smart. Smart work can be hard, but hard work is not always smart. Take the path of least resistance.
One last thing, should you decide to do such a thing, have you ever considered keeping with the ramp or dock and moving forward? Many great jobs in the aviation support industry. I'm sure many at the Air Canada Ground Handling Services would tell you of their 30+ year careers. A guy on here going by Hazatude, a friend of mine, is a professional I had the joy of working on the ramp for. Not everything aviation is flying. You may find just as much enjoyment and possibly better money this way.
doan_1 wrote:Well I'm still going to run the site (since I have had a few donators already) to see if it can get what I need to get a barebones CPL. At least that way I get my VFR OTT and Night rating for personal use should nothing else ever come out of this. If I can put the money together (not necessarily from gofundme) for some block time this summer I think I will. I might as well at least enjoy my PPL a little bit otherwise I might forget why I wanted to do this in the first place. This has been a source of way too much stress! I have only flown once for anything that was not training related. Maybe take a couple trips up island or get a buddy to split the cost and go to somewhere completely different. A 152 might be a little small for me to head to Calgary, but to Boundary Bay or Langley? It would not be much more than the ferry these days.
Agreed to everyone saying fix your finances first, I will take that advice. Like I mentioned this fund raising wasn't my first idea. If it happens, great. If not, it didn't cost me anything to try.
I really don't mean to beat you up for this, but it seems like are just "giving this a whirl" on the generous supporters dime and if nothing comes from it you will use the $$ for personal enjoyment? After all, like you said "it didn't cost me anything to try"
What about the people you are e-begging.. It would cost them??
A little bit of beating up here, not so much directed at the OP, but at the spirit which has shown itself in the posts. That spirit, which I do not like, brings to mind something JFK said (if I quote it correctly): "It's not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". Insert "fellow aviators", or society, in place of country, for this purpose.
I have, on a number of occasions been given flying time, and in some pretty awesome aircraft and places. However, I have given a lot out myself, I have paid it forward often. Back in the day when I walked two miles to school in knee deep snow uphill both ways, I also spent a lot of time scrubbing the bellies of filthy aircraft, fueling them, and other sundry less desirable airport tasks. Similarly at the summer camp float base, I was always grabbing a strut, and helping to unload. The return on my investment in that effort and labour was incredible.
I have worked steadily in aviation for nearly 40 years, in a number of different capacities, including Technical Director of an AMO/MFG, and pilot. Yet, I have never applied for a job, produced a resume, nor filled out an application.
I learned that the jobs in aviation which interested me were hired by people who were looking for a self starter with initiative. What they "had" was of lesser importance than how it was achieved, and the potential [in me] to do more - for them. I have never been fired from a job, and never left with hard feelings, though I have chosen to move on, when doing so did not leave my employer in the lurch.
I donate in a number of ways, not with the need for myself to see a return ('cause that would be investing - which I also do), but rather to nurture someone or something which will return back to someone else (society) a grown donation from that I made. I feel much less inclined to make a donation so someone could have a license they may not use, other than for their own entertainment.
I don't know much about "crowd funding", but I hope that it is about creating a path more for "investments" rather than "donations". What is the means that society on the who enjoys a return on their investment of crown funding? If you take care of society, it will take care of you, but from my experience that is best achieved by offering before asking.....
PilotDAR wrote:, but at the spirit which has shown itself in the posts. That spirit, which I do not like,
Consider it tough love. I hear where you're coming from, but I don't feel that's the case. What I feel is that when someone goes about things this way is it hurts everyone who is chipping into the communal affair that keeps GA such an amazing place. Over the years I've put in more than my fair share of volunteerism into aviation. There are uncounted unpaid hours, and I love the opportunity to give back especially now that I'm the one on the other side with airplane time to give. That said, I hate when people impose on my good nature (you know, being as how little of it there is, being thoroughly aligned with the dark side of profiting off aviation and all) in that they feel the deserve, or have a right to said good will. When I see someone putting in their own effort, I'll gladly match it, but I ain't got time for those with their own sense of entitlement.
I don't know much about "crowd funding", but I hope that it is about creating a path more for "investments" rather than "donations". What is the means that society on the who enjoys a return on their investment of crown funding? If you take care of society, it will take care of you, but from my experience that is best achieved by offering before asking.....
Crowd funding has two purposes. Either out and out charity for people really in need, or for start up investments. I don't feel the OP is either of these, especially given that I've contributed in the past to crowd funding of both of the previous types, through kickstarter and gofundyourself websites. I'm not a religious man, but I believe its been said that the "Lord helps those who help themselves." The OP has lots of options open still to achieve his goal, and the idea that they largely saw an opportunity to take advantage of the good nature of others, doesn't speak well for them. Nor does it speak well for aviators in general.
A little bit of beating up here, not so much directed at the OP, but at the spirit which has shown itself in the posts. That spirit, which I do not like,
I phrased my thought rather poorly. I was trying to pussy foot, and should have been more blunt. Sorry Dean, here it comes....
"A little bit of beating up here, not so much directed at the OP, but at the spirit which the OP has shown in his posts. That spirit, which I do not like,..."
I do not like the spirit that someone would think to "get" what they can from their fellow [insert group], rather than to invest in that group, as a member and a contributor first.
The spirit of tough love is alive and well with me.
I have no problem helping a fellow aviator out, but I'm not convinced the OP has exhausted his avenues, nor is this his "last hope from a desperate aviator."
As a stated before this seems to be a easy way out and by his own admission "doesn't cost me anything."
I'm not monitoring this thread any more and will be removing my info. It was a mistake to post it here, though I won't apologize for trying to get out of a tight spot. I have indeed been working on my own to get past these challenges (including moving, new career, new training as solutions) contrary to some of the less than helpful opinions here. To those with helpful ideas I do honestly thank you! To the rest I'll keep my true comments to myself.
And I would like to note that only one person sent a PM for more info and talk to me. They were genuinely helpful even without the donation. So out of everyone here I now know who actually wants to help people. Thank you to them!
That's a bit of a wide brush doan. Remember every single person is fighting a battle you know nothing about. We've all been there and many of us have been at the "last hope". I feel for you, I really do but I think your attempt here shows a degree of naivety of this industry as a whole. Finishing the CPL is literally just the beginning of the long difficult journey of making aviation a career. Good luck in your endeavours!
doan_1 wrote:I'm not monitoring this thread any more and will be removing my info. It was a mistake to post it here, though I won't apologize for trying to get out of a tight spot. I have indeed been working on my own to get past these challenges (including moving, new career, new training as solutions) contrary to some of the less than helpful opinions here. To those with helpful ideas I do honestly thank you! To the rest I'll keep my true comments to myself.
And I would like to note that only one person sent a PM for more info and talk to me. They were genuinely helpful even without the donation. So out of everyone here I now know who actually wants to help people. Thank you to them!
I can't speak for others, but my time and counsel are worth far more than a few dollars. Nothing that is freely given, is given under compulsion.
A good thought, which I suspect more than a few here would agree -- if I don't meet your expectations -- there is but one option.
I was trying to pussy foot, and should have been more blunt. Sorry Dean, here it comes....
