Landed with someone else on the runway

[pelmet]

"The Moncton Flight College Diamond DV20, registration C-FFQT, was waiting to depart Moncton
airport for Maramichi, NB. The tower told C-FFQT to line up on Runway 24 at intersection Delta,
about 6500 feet from the threshold of Runway 24. Four minutes later, another Moncton Flight
College Diamond DV20, registration C-FCUS, was cleared to land on Runway 24. C-FCUS landed
on Runway 24 while C-FFQT was on the runway. C-FCUS came to a stop with at least 2600 feet
between aircraft. NAV CANADA is investigating."


It reminds me of an event way back when in the Twin Otter up north. I was landing on a gravel runway and decided to try a real short field landing with flaps 40 as the parking area was beside the threshold. I was really concentrating on landing at the threshold and everything seemed perfect when the captain said two words at about 50 feet....."go- around". For a thousandth of a second you think...is he joking, but full power is added and we go-around.

Having read an accident report on type I knew that raising the nose while heavy with 40 degrees flaps could lead to a stall as happened to a DHC-6 at the Grand Canyon airport. So I stayed level and called for flaps 20 and we slowly accelerated. Maybe we had hit windshear, why does he want to go around I am thinking(perhaps I should just think about flying). Then we flow very close over a lumbering Caribou, the biggest one I have ever seen trotting straight down the runway. Lesson learned, it is easy to become so focused on the landing that you don't see someone else or something else further down the runway. Glad he saw it.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Is there not some rule for small aircraft that they can land with only a portion of the runway clear? The traffic on the runway here was 6500 feet from the threshold, I'm sure the aircraft that landed uses runways that are shorter than that. I know I've been cleared to land in a 206 with a truck on the runway, at the other end, a mile and a half away.

[Rookie50]

From the "dumb things IVe seen -- thread" -- this happened right in front of me. And I'm not one for this, but this one should be looked into and a conversation had. I reported it to the airport.



And......a new leader takes the field tonight!

As I was arriving this fine early evening, I hear 2 guys about to join downwind as I am planning my own overhead mid right downwind. Not seeing them, (and it just felt wrong, somehow) I do an orbit clear of the circuit to give both planes time to get clear towards the base leg.

What I hear and see, is the second plane crowding the first, so much they announce on the base leg together, final together (and a normal confined circuit, not a cross country one -- and as I slow down on base, well behind, I see them practically land together, certainly both completely on the runway at the same time, maybe 1000 feet apart at the time. Maybe quite a bit less. Did I mention it was getting dark, too?

They actually exited the runway at the same moment, at different exits to the taxiway, which tells one how close they likely were.

Did I mention this is not a 10,000 foot runway -- but a fairly modest uncontrolled runway?

Loads of time for the second plane on downwind or base to do an orbit, widen out, do an overshoot. No one in the way, and I gave them loads of room myself, well clear behind.

So I assume it's a student, and after I land call the school and suggest a chat is in order. Nope -- told this is a commercial pilot. Uh Huh. Horrible decison making, airmanship, and situational awareness. Ticked me off a little.


So I say --- GOOD JOB!

[Redneck_pilot86]

Were those two aircraft flying together? If so, I don't see the problem. If both aircraft are similar types, then they will approach, land and taxi at similar speeds. If both pilots know what is going on, there is very little danger. If the front aircraft has a problem on landing (flat tire, etc) all he has to do is tell #2. 1000 feet horizontally is lots of room to safely overshoot if needed.

That being said, if the pilots were not together, then I agree that it is a little close.

[Rookie50]

Were those two aircraft flying together? If so, I don't see the problem. If both aircraft are similar types, then they will approach, land and taxi at similar speeds. If both pilots know what is going on, there is very little danger. If the front aircraft has a problem on landing (flat tire, etc) all he has to do is tell #2. 1000 feet horizontally is lots of room to safely overshoot if needed.

That being said, if the pilots were not together, then I agree that it is a little close.

No -- they weren't together.

[Siddley Hawker]

One fine morning at Montreal Dorval Alcan's 125 was cleared to land on R28. A guy in a 172 on his way to get a commercial checkride from TC was coming in from the west and was cleared to land on 06L, the threshold of which is co-located with R10. You
guessed it, in spite of the tower yelling and screaming he landed on 10. As he came nose to nose with the 125, Lyle Hollinger who was flying the Alcan airplane asked who should proceed first. The tower came back "Both of you hold for the Gulfstream landing on the Echo taxiway."

[PilotDAR]

Decades ago, I was practicing my very short and precise circuits at my home aerodrome, which was 1600 x 30 feet of turf. The only other user of the aerodrome had left hours earlier, so I had the place to myself. I was doing my circuits into the gentle wind, which was right down the runway. I was intently focused on the touchdown zone - too much so....I had just touched down right on the threshold, to look further down the runway for the first time, to see that he had just touched down coming toward me, having flown straight in, and landed downwind. He'd done a nice short landing too, so we stopped about 200 feet from each other - spinner to spinner, so to speak.

The runway was not wide enough there for either of us to turn around, so we had to shut down, and turn his 182 around by hand, so I could taxi in....

Now, I try to be more aware, in the bigger picture, when I'm doing circuits....

[Mayor_McCheese]

Is there not some rule for small aircraft that they can land with only a portion of the runway clear? The traffic on the runway here was 6500 feet from the threshold, I'm sure the aircraft that landed uses runways that are shorter than that. I know I've been cleared to land in a 206 with a truck on the runway, at the other end, a mile and a half away.

Yes, and No. The rule only applies to lander vs. lander. As long as the first lander will exit the runway, not stop, and not backtrack, the second lander can cross the threshold before the first is clear of the runway. This is a very simplistic version of the rule, there are of course other factors (weight category differences, runway condition, etc...).

There is no rule that allows a lander to cross the threshold while the runway is otherwise occupied (i.e., a departure not yet airborne, or a vehicle or other aircraft on the runway).

An exception to this would be if the runway was NOTAM'd shortened for some reason (construction on the opposite threshold for some reason). Maybe this was the case when you were cleared to land with a truck on the opposite end? Just speculating of course...

[ahramin]

Uncontrolled 6000' runway, another aircraft at the end of the runway, if I land, what CAR am I breaking?

[CpnCrunch]

The only CAR that I know applies is:

2) Before taking off from, landing at or otherwise operating an aircraft at an aerodrome, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall be satisfied that
a)there is no likelihood of collision with another aircraft or a vehicle;

I'm not aware of any rule that says you can't land if another aircraft is 6000ft down the runway. I don't know if you'll ever get permission from ATC or FSS to do this though.

[grimey]

Funniest one I can remember from working in YTH was a Navajo getting confused about which end of the runway was close, and landing with construction vehicles at the midpoint of 05, just before the A/C intersection. Got stopped in plenty of time, and sheepishly taxied off the side of the runway to get around them. Listening to him relate what happened in the bar that night was awesome.

Doing the internal investigation on that one (the NOTAM wasn't recorded properly on the ATIS, among other things) was a little awkward.

[Mayor_McCheese]

I'm not aware of any rule that says you can't land if another aircraft is 6000ft down the runway. I don't know if you'll ever get permission from ATC or FSS to do this though.

That's the perspective I'm speaking from. We can't clear you to land in that situation.

[ahramin]

Ok so next question, if the control tower is in operation and you land without a clearance what CAR have you broken? In commercial ops it is specified we cannot do this in our ops manual but is there a CAR that covers this?

[photofly]

602.96(3)(g)

Maximum penalty for doing so: $3000 for an individual, $15,000 for a corporation.

[TG]

I had just touched down right on the threshold, to look further down the runway for the first time, to see that he had just touched down coming toward me, having flown straight in, and landed downwind. He'd done a nice short landing too, so we stopped about 200 feet from each other - spinner to spinner, so to speak.

Similar story, word to word from your quote above, except that the opposite aircraft was a radio controlled model!

He did the 180 and quickly retreated

[Tubthumper]

Heavily cropped in, but the tower was glad I caught it. The C150 was cleared for a low-n-over, and to stay West of the runway while doing it. Not sure why he landed, but ...ooops.... did it anyway.

[CpnCrunch]

Heavily cropped in, but the tower was glad I caught it. The C150 was cleared for a low-n-over, and to stay West of the runway while doing it. Not sure why he landed, but ...ooops.... did it anyway.

Not much danger of the 150 hitting that 737 or airbus, but I'd be worried about getting flipped over by the jet blast!

[Tubthumper]

At that distance, there wasn't much room, but the AC pilot wasn't impressed!