Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

[photofly]

Where does the ad guarantee anything after one year, or anytime? You think a business should guarantee Anything to an inexperienced new hire? Good luck with that.

I agree with you 100% that the ad doesn't guarantee anything, and nor should the company. That's exactly why it should pay a fair wage for the work the pilot does at the dispatch desk before moving to a flying job. So the two can part company at any stage on equal terms.

If I employ you in a $35k job for a year but pay you only $15k, to which you agree only on the reasonable expectation (which is certainly given in the ad) that you'd get a pilot's job after 12 months - and then I let you go, I just f*cked you for $20k. That's no different to a company paying for a type rating and having the pilot leave after 3 months.

[Rookie50]

Where does the ad guarantee anything after one year, or anytime? You think a business should guarantee Anything to an inexperienced new hire? Good luck with that.

I agree with you 100% that the ad doesn't guarantee anything, and nor should the company. That's exactly why it should pay a fair wage for the work the pilot does at the dispatch desk before moving to a flying job. So the two can part company at any stage on equal terms.

If I employ you in a $35k job for a year but pay you only $15k, to which you agree only on the reasonable expectation (which is certainly given in the ad) that you'd get a pilot's job after 12 months - and then I let you go, I just f*cked you for $20k. That's no different to a company paying for a type rating and having the pilot leave after 3 months.

A) The job doesn't quote pay, so we don't know its substandard; or by how much, and B) it makes zero business sense to do this, (deliberately deceive people) as if (I) did this, I get a reputation, then don't get the best candidates, and I spend a lot of time, money and energy, going through new staff and training, which 15 or 20K doesn't remotely cover. Makes no sense. Likely, the job is as advertised, as an apprentice position; but they aren't going to be bound to promote a useless employee, which sounds reasonable to me.

Who knows? Maybe its a ticket to a right seat in 3 months if something opened up or they were really impressed. Sometimes you have to take risks. Not everyone is always out to screw their employees. Its a risk for both parties.

[photofly]

You're right that the ad doesn't quote pay. But having to dangle the carrot of a pilot job rather implies that the prospect of a pilot seat after a year is significant inducement to some to apply. It also stops the company from finding out what a permanent dispatcher should cost (and what they should pay) because they can stuff the post with would-be pilots.

I don't believe the company is trying deliberately to deceive prospective employees into working for sub-standard wages before being shown the door. But there are lots of reasons why employees are let go and the distinction between "being f*cked with the intention of being f*cked from the outset" and "being f*cked for unavoidable reasons that only became clear after 11 months of working for sub-standard pay" are immaterial to the f*ckee.

If you're worried about the dispatcher being a useless employee, then it shouldn't take you a whole year to notice, nor a year to decide they don't fit in. Most companies are able to sort out useless employees with a three month probationary period and they pay them the full salary for the job they're doing during those three months. Claiming the year on sub-standard wages has anything to do with weeding out useless people is plainly bogus.

Moreover, you're wrong to suggest this is an apprentice job: a dispatcher is not an apprentice pilot in any sense of the word.

[Shiny Side Up]

B) it makes zero business sense to do this, (deliberately deceive people) as if (I) did this, I get a reputation, then don't get the best candidates, and I spend a lot of time, money and energy, going through new staff and training, which 15 or 20K doesn't remotely cover. Makes no sense.

Makes no sense to you, makes no sense to me, but you have a hard time convincing a lot of people - many in management positions - of that. And there are a lot of businesses that run exactly on the above scheme, though its really noticeable in aviation.

The problem is few people can think long term enough to know that keeping good employees, and attracting good employees, saves you money in the long run. Instead they look at what the more immediate problem of the next payroll.

A good company makes money off of its customers, a mediocre company makes money off its equipment, and a bad one makes money off its employees. There's all sorts out there.

[photofly]

I just want to point out that nobody is suggesting NAC is deliberately trying to screw employees. I don't know what they're paying at either end, and I take at face value the comments from those who know that they're a good company to work for who treat their pilots well.

But their ad made me want to comment on this issue.

[Liquid Charlie]

I find this interesting -- my question is when do pilots go from calling fowl when it comes to hiring practices to "I did my servitude and took my lumps so suck it up and get on with it and eventually you will either quit aviation or find that job which pays and has a good lifestyle -- just wondering

[YYZSaabGuy]

I find this interesting -- my question is when do pilots go from calling fowl when it comes to hiring practices to "I did my servitude and took my lumps so suck it up and get on with it and eventually you will either quit aviation or find that job which pays and has a good lifestyle -- just wondering

Great question, LC. Based on some of the more, um, senior posters here on AvCanada, it seems to occur around the 2,500 postings mark.

[North Shore]

[quote="Rookie50] You want guarantees, work in the public sector. They sure have no problem blowing the taxpayer's dough.[/quote]

Just like those paragons of parsimony Target, and the latest private sector stars Barclays Bank currency traders... Public sector has no monopoly on wasting money - in fact, it is the politicians in charge who screw it up royally...

[Rookie50]

[quote="Rookie50] You want guarantees, work in the public sector. They sure have no problem blowing the taxpayer's dough.

Just like those paragons of parsimony Target, and the latest private sector stars Barclays Bank currency traders... Public sector has no monopoly on wasting money - in fact, it is the politicians in charge who screw it up royally...[/quote][/quote]

On the other hand......

http://www.cknw.com/2015/05/20/namethat ... cebook.com

[HiFlyChick]

I knew a guy once who was told that a certain company had no pilot jobs, but he asked to be taken on as a ramp guy (which they were in fact looking for). After working for them for a while, when a pilot job came open, they already knew that he was (a) a hard worker, (b) a nice guy to be around, and (c) had initiative and so guess what - they hired him as a pilot.

Seems to me that the company who posted this ad would probably hire a guy without a pilot license if that's all they get applying, but they probably know that given how pilots get experience and move on, they are figuring that if they already have a pilot working for them that demonstrates he is a good worker and nice guy to work with they'll have someone right ready to go.

Anyone can be taught to fly, but you can't teach someone to have a better personality, or in some cases, to have a decent work ethic. From the employers perspective it seems like a reasonable way to pre-screen their pilots (and maybe weed out the divas). If you think this job is unfair - here's a thought - don't take it. They are being straight up honest with what they want, and I don't see any promises being made here either. It's their company and their job - if they want to say that you need to have your own unicycle and be able to run a marathon in under 3 hrs in order to apply, then it's their right to do so, just like it's your right to not apply if you think their demands are unreasonable...

[7dirty7]

.

[photofly]

especially PF, each reply I read was read in a whiny Steve Earkle voice in my head, god I hope I never have to work with you.

Steve Urkel perhaps? Actually I'm a bass-baritone, and you're quite safe - I promise you'll never ever work with me.

[7dirty7]

https://youtu.be/ixSKGBZkKtU?t=39s

[Strega]

To quote a legendary poster

"CLEANING A SHITTER IS CLEANING A SHITTER'


putting your "time in" is absolute rubbish.... people use their own money to become pilots.. this might be ok if the company you wanted to work for would ultimately pay for your training in exchange for service.

[Meatservo]

Meh. FLYING is no great shakes either. Enjoy your time in dispatch, I say. You'll look back on it fondly.

[HiFlyChick]

...
putting your "time in" is absolute rubbish.... people use their own money to become pilots.. this might be ok if the company you wanted to work for would ultimately pay for your training in exchange for service.

Funny, I don't recall any of my (non-flying) employers offering to pay for my university degree....

[Rookie50]

To quote a legendary poster

"CLEANING A SHITTER IS CLEANING A SHITTER'


putting your "time in" is absolute rubbish.... people use their own money to become pilots.. this might be ok if the company you wanted to work for would ultimately pay for your training in exchange for service.

So What? People pay size for a Harvard MBA, and no offense to anyone who has one, but its toilet paper in my industry. It's an admission slip to be allowed to clean Goldman's toilets. Why? Cause if you prove yourself, long term upside is enormous. Same here.

I'm not in any hiring position, but if anyone told me "I'm too good / entitled / educated to do that job to help my company" such a person could easily be cut off. Blacklisted, too. As business owner, nothing PO's me faster than an entitled attitude from entry level workers. (and you see it everywhere, BTW) Again, we're not talking scary unsafe practices here.

In either case, you don't like it, don't apply. There are a thousand bodies behind you. Supply and demand. Next.

[Shiny Side Up]

To quote a legendary poster

"CLEANING A SHITTER IS CLEANING A SHITTER'


putting your "time in" is absolute rubbish.... people use their own money to become pilots.. this might be ok if the company you wanted to work for would ultimately pay for your training in exchange for service.

Hell, I still clean shitters. Sometimes work just needs to be done. You can be a pilot who all he does is "fly" or you can be a useful employee. Up to you though. Someone said something to me the other day and I can't help but agree: "If you're looking for a flying job, and you see someone at the airport putting on gloves to do something, go help him. He's probably the chief pilot."

[LousyFisherman]

The ad makes perfect business sense. As a business owner manager I do not need skills (pilots are $0.05 for a couple of dozen) I need attitude. Pilots with a good attitude appear to be extremely rare, just look at this thread.

Questions:
Is dispatcher experience valuable to a pilot?
Is willingness to do work that is not part of the job description a valuable attitude in an employee?
Are entry level jobs so common in aviation that a prospective pilot can afford to ignore any opportunity?

Or should they listen to the old timers who main purpose appears to be to protect their own jobs?

I am assuming the pay rate will be that of a junior dispatcher. If not, then my opinion of the employer is not suitable for public display.

Just my $0.00 (since the penny is gone)

LF

[Strega]

To quote a legendary poster

"CLEANING A SHITTER IS CLEANING A SHITTER'


putting your "time in" is absolute rubbish.... people use their own money to become pilots.. this might be ok if the company you wanted to work for would ultimately pay for your training in exchange for service.

Hell, I still clean shitters. Sometimes work just needs to be done. You can be a pilot who all he does is "fly" or you can be a useful employee. Up to you though. Someone said something to me the other day and I can't help but agree: "If you're looking for a flying job, and you see someone at the airport putting on gloves to do something, go help him. He's probably the chief pilot."

Clean your shittersif it makes you happy and feel "good"... I learned the things I did so I can pay someone else to...

[Shiny Side Up]

Clean your shitters if it makes you happy and feel "good"... I learned the things I did so I can pay someone else to...

The point being that you don't usually get to a position where you tell people to clean the shitters, if you've never, and won't do it yourself, when it needs to be done. The same could be said of any business though.

[twotterjockey]

Just for the information of previous and future posters...Rob King is now the former owner of NAC and is no longer associated with the company in any capacity.

[lownslow]

FWIW there are guys out there with 500 hours who desperately want to dispatch for a year. I do my part to try and talk them into flying an airplane but some are dead set on a desk for whatever personal reasons they may have.

[awitzke]

Scared of the actual responsibility of flying perhaps?

[lownslow]

I suspect they're worried about trying to find a turbine job in a year. Easier and safer to arrange your next two jobs at the same time, although I don't agree with it.