Dash-8 Q400 Initial Training

[Reaz]

I am planning to do my Dash-8 Q400 Initial Sim Training at Toronto at my own cost . Is there anyone here who also have same intention. Please PM me. We could share the cost.

[FighterPilot]

Congrats on the Dash-8 job, who is it for?

[longjon]

This should be interesting

[timel]

I am planning to do my Dash-8 Q400 Initial Sim Training at Toronto at my own cost . Is there anyone here who also have same intention. Please PM me. We could share the cost.

Why would you do that?
Do you have any job in sight?
At CAE? Which SOP are you using?


You sound like some guy who has been doing pay to fly and could build 3000 hours in 15 years.
In Canada we don't do PAY TO FLY, people like you are making this profession a misery!
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 90#p476790

You don't deserve a job. Dream or not, this is a job for professionals, and professionals don't pay in order to work.

[ant_321]

Please tell me you're a troll.

[Rowdy]

Just look at the posting history.

[Reaz]

I am planning to do my Dash-8 Q400 Initial Sim Training at Toronto at my own cost . Is there anyone here who also have same intention. Please PM me. We could share the cost.

Why would you do that?
Do you have any job in sight?
At CAE? Which SOP are you using?


You sound like some guy who has been doing pay to fly and could build 3000 hours in 15 years.
In Canada we don't do PAY TO FLY, people like you are making this profession a misery!
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 90#p476790

You don't deserve a job. Dream or not, this is a job for professionals, and professionals don't pay in order to work.

Kid grow up. Don't jump in to conclusion.

Every situation is not same as what you think. If something is not of your interest just ignore!

First three lines of your posting appeared that you are in to it. Then you quickly realized that you have to look like a hero. I am also with the same opinion as everyone in this industry when it comes to pay for the training. I refused to pay and didn't get one job and refused to pay again got a better job.

I feel you are not even the age as my full aviation career. Please let people share their interests in this forum with freedom. My situation is completely different and beyond your comprehension.

Please do not start trolling and swamp this thread with unnecessary comments and get it out of context. Only pay attention if you are of any help or just ignore! Thanks.

[xsbank]

Curious how you would share expenses? Hotel room? Half meals? Half beers? Books etc are part of the Type cost...the hotel has a bunny bus. Wouldnt save much but it means you might get to pick your sim buddy, but that is irrelevant too...

Work hard, if it's your first type on a complex a/c it will need concentration.

[timel]

Yes well, people like you are very much of my interest. You are one of this people who think they deserve a job because they can self sponsor a PPC. Well, you don't, there are skilled pilots on the market who deserve those jobs and can't afford to pay in order to fund a training. (It is unethical by the way)


I have a strong feeling, it isn't the first time you are doing that, I would not even be surprised you are the king of guys that is making a living possible for people who have agencies like eaglejet.

[xsbank]

Everybody makes their own way in this world. Your path is probably different than mine but the way you conduct yourself in life is how you will be remembered.

Anybody who hired you for a job would put you through their own training regime anyway so you are probably wasting your money, but then again, it is your money.

In this country there is a perception that there is only one path to aviation happiness and enlightenment and that's just incorrect. But one thing is a fact and that is that most pilots are not rich, many are still paying off the loans they took to train, many are working long hours at entry-level jobs and many here think self-funding is a third-world nouveau-riche way to do things and it merely adds to resentments we don't like to admit to. Probably you should not be waving your self-funding around on this site as it's filled with many who will criticize you for your choices. I personally don't care how you persue your career but use some common sense.

Also, while I'm on a roll, if you have contacted every outfit in Canada and you haven't got a reply, there may be something you are doing wrong in your approach? You have not received much sympathy in a very hard audience on here so maybe take time to examine your attitude?

Anyway, if you want some help with your resume and cover letter, pm me.

[chipmunk]

1 - listen to xsbank. There's more to flying than just flying... (nearly) anyone can be taught to fly an airplane. You need to be a personable, responsible, positive, committed to sticking around the company for a while, and be able to convince CPs that they won't mind spending a 4-day pairing with you... and so much more.

2 - if that doesn't convince you to save your cash, maybe this will: on a thread linked above, you indicate you have PIC hours on a Dash 8-100, so your license already says "DH8" on it. All the Dash 8s, even the Q, are a common type rating so if it's the extra writing on your license you're going for, you'll be out of luck.

[Doodlebugger]

Message deleted

[Reaz]

Coming from the UK, now resident in Canada, I am well used to the “pay to fly” culture which has prospered over the last decade or so, and I have no doubt that the majority of those taking part come from lets say privileged backgrounds. However I have considered this myself and I’d be happy to hear opinions on the rights and wrongs for someone in my position.

Now in my early 40’s at 18 years old I wrote to the CAA in the UK to inquire about flight training to become a commercial pilot, they quoted something in the region of 50000 GBP, an astronomical figure to me at the time! My dad worked as a paint sprayer at the local car plant so obviously couldn’t fund that, there were no student loans available for pilot training, my only option being to try the RAF, and try I did, but unfortunately I didn’t make the cut, not many did back then!

So seeing no way into flying I managed to get a scholarship to go to University and completed a degree in mechanical Engineering, and then managed to get a job working offshore in oil exploration, I have worked in the oil industry ever since both offshore worldwide, and more recently since gaining residency in the oilfields of Alberta. Some 5 or so years ago I was in dock in Tampa, and saw introductory flights advertised for $60, figured I’ll have a go at that! It started me off again, and I started flying in my breaks from work both in Canada and the UK, ending up getting my CPL/ME/IFR licenses in both Europe and Canada.

Now in my early 40’s, and having worked damn hard for over twenty years, usually working 5 weeks trips straight offshore, 12 hrs “every” day or night, from sweating my nuts off on the back deck, or in work boats in the Persian gulf, to freezing my ass off “fracking” in Northern Alberta all Winter, I think I have deserved to do what I want with the next 20 or so years I have left. I don’t think that’s unreasonable?

I would like nothing more than to be 20 years old again and have the opportunities the young guys here in Canada have, someone from my background can get a student loan to do there training, then go toss bags for a year or so, and I truly believe if a guy has never done a "proper" days work in his life, if I were an employer and looking to put someone in the right seat of an expensive aircraft I might want to take a look at the guys character too and see what he’s made of?

However, I think I’ve done more than my fair share of character building, I may not have put my time in on the ramp, but no one has ever given me anything, and if I have the money for a Type rating then believe me I’ve worked damn hard for that money! I am getting older and time is a factor and you only come this way once, so my question is for all you out there who jump down the throat of anyone who mentions pay to fly is would you begrudge a guy like me who never had the opportunities you have, who has worked hard all his life trying to take a bit of a shortcut to achieve what he thought he never could, or do you think I need to go toss bags for a few years to show my worth maybe?

The fact is I most probably won’t go down the route of paying for my own TR, I’ll most probably do an instructor rating, simply because I think I would like to instruct, but I also really don’t see the difference between the thousands of guys who pay $10000 or so for an instructor rating with the intention of only doing it long enough to secure a right seat, maybe only for 6 months or so. It is merely an investment in there career, a means to an end and a way to advance, why is this any different to a guy paying for a TR? Whether considered right or wrong, at least the guy paying for the TR is being honest about his intentions, can that really be said of all those who spend 10000 on an instructor rating?

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts…..

Dear Doodlebugger

Your post touched my heart! My situation was so much similar to your's few years back. I could't express any better than you did. I was out of flying for almost five years after coming to Canada. I was doing something else to pay my bills and raise three children. But my heart was in the cockpit and never gave up.

To be honest my post has nothing to do with getting any job in Canada. I have a very good job. I am very happy with it and I didn't pay a penny for this job, although that was a condition. Then, why am I planning do something mentioned in this post? Well I am not bound to disclose my privacy in a public forum. Yet I posted my plan in this forum knowing fully well there will be disgruntled kids / intellectuals jumping all over this thread with an intention of derailing the ultimate issue rather than coming up with positive suggestions, if any.

I had the same experience 8 years back in this forum. But the beauty of 'AVCANADA' is that if you could filter out those negative and useless comments, you would find jewels underneath. One would find positive personality like you and would be benefited. That's what exactly happened to me 8 years back. I was helped by some stranger in this forum I never knew, which changed my life all together. I owe to him till date and will remember him forever.

I don't know your current situation, whether you are back to aviation or not. But, if you think I could be of any help, you could PM me. We need positive and honest personalities like you in this industry not big mouths.

Happy Landings!

[cdnpilot77]

Everyone has a way to "justify" why the natural order shouldn't apply to them. Agree or disagree with that natural order in Canada is another argument altogether. The crux of the matter is that the system in Europe has caused a massive and rapid decline in WAWCONS and we don't want to see that happen here.

Saying its ok for some but not for others to jump the queue because you've worked hard for your money is no different than the kids with daddies fat wallet getting the jobs or than the kids who've worked hard as an instructor or on the ramp. Sure you've worked hard for that money, but most likely so has their daddy (or mommy) or them to make this a career.

Taking Shortcuts, in my opinion, hurts the industry more than they could help any individual.

[timel]

+1 Cdnpilot77

Look at the European mess, this is not welcome in Canada.

You want to fly commercially, do like everyone else, you are 19 or 35, rich or poor, climb the ladders. Fine if you find it easy to pay your CPL, MIFR, if you have the attitude and the skills, no reasons you won't find your way in that industry.

[Doodlebugger]

Message deleted

[esp803]

could someone please explain where do we “draw the line“

I'll take a stab at this. For things like a multi engine rating or a float rating, they do not expire. Once you have them you can use them to apply for a paid position for your entire career. with an instrument rating, it does expire after a couple years but all that is required is an exam and a couple hours in a "red bird" or a PPC. Every company that has ever hired me has been happy to hire me with an expired instrument rating because it will get renewed in company training regardless.

With buying a type rating it's good for x amount of time (It's one year for smaller aircraft, I assume it's the same for the Q despite requiring 6mth recurrents), once that expires you've got to do it again.

If you don't get a job with your -8 rating, that is money down the drain. If you don't get a job from a float rating, try again next season without paying anything extra.

If I was in the position where I had the spare change lying around to purchase a type rating, I'd be looking at a share in a float plane or an RV-4 or something instead. No matter what the machine you are flying, it becomes a job, and the fancy gauges novelty only lasts a few hours I've found. If you've always dreamed of being a pilot, stay in the VFR world and enjoy the flying.

Just my thoughts

E

[TG]

I'm sure someone can or will explain it better than me.

We draw the line between a licence rating (Commercial/Instructor/Float/IFR/twin engine/ATPL) and an aircraft type rating.

An aircraft type rating should be provided by the employer since you will be trained according to their SOPs.
A licence rating should be provided by you since it will bring the basic knowledge to accomplish whatever flying you will do.

The "Pay To Fly" scheme as you already know goes way beyond that.
It imply that not only you already have all the required pilot's licences rating and your aircraft type rating for the position, but on top of that, you pay for X amount of flying hours during revenue flights!



edit: And what everything esp803 wrote....

If I had spare change it's B-17 type rating I would get myself

[Diadem]

Doodlebugger, look at it from the opposite perspective: if I left aviation and got an engineering degree, would it be reasonable of me to expect that I should have a management job with a high salary for a major oil company immediately, just because I "paid my dues" in an entirely different industry? Your experience doesn't translate over. And if you think you deserve to bypass smaller aircraft and jump straight to a 705 operation, why stop at a Q400? Why not a 737? Why not captain on a 737 at your age? WestJet would definitely be on board with exempting their hour requirements for an older pilot who paid for his type rating!

[awitzke]

Reaz, I looked through your older posts. Back in 2009 when you got your ATPL you were trying to "get back" into the cockpit somewhere. Did that ever happen or have you not flown since? With Dash-8 experience like you say you have (800 PIC) even with and expired type, you should not have much trouble at least getting an interview at Jazz, Encore or Porter and they would put you through their own SOP and sim training anyways.. I suggest taking XSbank up on his offer perhaps your CV is not suited to what employers in Canada are used to. I've seen some CV's from European pilots and they are excessive compared to what you find here.

[Doodlebugger]

Message deleted

[SirLandAlot]

Thanks for the comments. I think an important consideration is where do you draw the line when considering “pay to fly”.

My thoughts on this are that the line should be drawn at the point where continuing to pay will cause an adverse effect for others in the industry.

I believe this point lies at when people start to pay for line training hours. By buying yourself a type rating without a job to go to all you're actually doing is taking a big gamble with your own money and the only person you're hurting if it doesn't work out is yourself.

It's the people who are prepared to actually pay an airline to let them work for them, by paying for line hours, who are the ones that damage the industry. By doing this the airline then obviously start to think 'why should we pay our First Officers to work for us when there are some that will actually pay us to let them work for us'.

This then ruins it for everybody as only the rich kids with good credit at the 'bank of daddy' can afford to do this nonsense. The people from normal backgrounds get squeezed out and the rich kids get the pleasure of paying to work.

This is exactly what happened to us in Europe and it's really something to keep out of Canada.

[cdnpilot77]

Doodlebug, your posts are very long! I will answer with one simple line....There is no school or training event that can teach "experience"


Ok a few examples too...Cases in point of some major accidents caused by lack of basic flying skills.

Air France 447
Asiana 214
Asiana 162
Trans Asia 235

[Doodlebugger]

Message deleted

[TG]

I believe this point lies at when people start to pay for line training hours. By buying yourself a type rating without a job to go to all you're actually doing is taking a big gamble with your own money and the only person you're hurting if it doesn't work out is yourself.

No.
At some point Companies will expect everybody to pay for their type rating.
That is exactly what is going on in Europe with some low cost.

I personally know several guys who are currently in FO positions in Europe who went straight from flight school, did a TR and are flying commercially for major airlines.

Not the same.
There is basically no or very little small aviation in Europe where young civil pilots can cut their teeth like in North America.
To compensate for that, the JAA ATPL theory is very beefy compare to what we have to go through with Transports Canada or the FAA.

To put it simply.
Europe: Not much flying experience possible--->ATPL theory level up to the roof to compensate this lack.
North America: Lot of possibilities to gain flying experiences--->Easy ATPL theory level.


Can't talk about China, I have no idea about their own licensing system.