Formation Flying

[North Shore]

Just watched the vid of the Snowbirds in New York. http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&t=103376
The first few frames got me to wondering about formation flying, specifically if you're one of the middle machines.

Lead, (I assume) has the 'easy' job, as 'all' they have to do is make sure that there's enough room for everyone else to complete the maneuvers, and that the group isn't going so fast that the followers can't keep up.

Do the middle guys have to keep an eye on everyone else in their vicinity, or do they just have to concentrate on one other machine, and just work on trust that everyone else is doing their thing competently? I can see keeping track of perhaps two other aeroplanes, but beyond that, I think that you'd be so busy with your head on a swivel that you wouldn't have enough time to process the incoming information, and make adjustments..

Given that there are 9 Snowbirds, is the flight split up into 3 elements of 3 then, with two followers to each lead, and all of the leads following each other?

Interesting stuff...

[iflyforpie]

I would imagine it's from front to back, inside to outside. Like, the slot is only looking at the lead, the inner right only looking at the slot or lead, the outer right only looking at the inner right. You look outside, you lose reference and then the guy who is referencing you also screws up.

You've got to 100% trust who you are flying with.

[lownslow]

Simplifying it to an echelon formation (diagonal line of airplanes) the lead is leading (duh) while flying as smoothly as they can. The next guy out is watching lead and holding position, usually by lining up a couple things on the lead plane to get the angle right. Every subsequent pilot is looking inwards towards the lead (primarily referencing the next plane inward) and lining up as many helmets as they can. At least, that's how I learned to do it.

A V-formation is essentially just two echelons following the same lead.

[Beefitarian]

I remember someone ( I think either a snowbird or a blue angel, possibly a thunderbird ) talking about trusting the next guy to stay in position while he kept position on another guy. He kept saying, "My contract with x is to stay in my box in position on his wing while y has a contract to stay in his box in position on my wing."

Here is a pretty good short video with a gent that was Snowbird 4 a while ago explaining how he does it.

https://vimeo.com/67765664

[photofly]

Regrettably, North Shore, I think you and the other moderators issued a permanent ban to the one person who frequented this forum who was perfectly qualified to answer your questions.

brock_break.jpg (105.45 KiB) Viewed 2151 times

[PilotDAR]

I was mentored by a former RAF Red Arrows leader, who trained as Lownslow describes. Leader flies, each other pilot forms up on only one aircraft. Prior planning, agreement and confidence is required to make this work. When it does, it's great! A friend and I used to regularly fly the Tomahawk and Ercoupe around in very tight formation and had a blast.

[North Shore]

Perhaps, Photofly. OTOH, AuxBatOn, Rockie, and Big Pistons have all done formation also (to the best of my knowledge), as have a few other posters, as shown by the contributions above.

[Beefitarian]

I started typing in your defense earlier North, but suddenly remembered we're at the Internet and realized this is no place for communication. I suspect you are not celebrating the demise of good old Hedley. It is not the vibe I get from you.

[Rockie]

Lead actually has the hardest job because he's responsible for the other airplanes in the formation too, and it goes far beyond just flying smoothly. For the other formation members they are only flying off one other airplane as a reference, however if you're third or more aircraft out along the same line of reference it helps greatly to look "through" the plane you're referencing to the others. Doing that reduces the "whip sawing" effect by allowing you to differentiate between a transient movement and an actual change in formation attitude.

Formation members will also have standard escape trajectories to avoid collisions if they lose sight of their reference or the formation integrity starts to degrade. Obviously the larger the formation the more complex that is.

[Meatservo]

Yes, it's too bad we don't get to wade through a long-winded diatribe full of poorly veiled insults, and phoney self-effacement alternating with narcissistic boasting just in order to get a simple answer to North Shore's question. Excellent point, photofly.

[Strega]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecve6k4dBeM


John is a friend of mine, hopefully this summer I can do a ride along doing a formation IMC flight...


Im sure the usual suspects will chime in to how dangerous this is....

[cgzro]

What works for me (in my limited experience so far) is to use lead for vertical and fore aft position and left or right neighbor for lateral spacing.

Leads job is less tiring because he is not playing with power while everybody else has that extra dimension of throrttle jockying which is very hard work. In a prop plane its every second or so adjustments.

Its interesting if you add the dimension of vertical formation because now lead has to fly aerobatics at considerably reduced power settings which adds a new dimension to the equation. I believe formation flying going straight up is one of the most difficult things to do in a plane although a formation instrument approach looks pretty intense too.

[Rockie]

Im sure the usual suspects will chime in to how dangerous this is....

Fighters routinely fly close formation in cloud at night, and it isn't "dangerous" provided you are properly trained and proficient. But I'm sure you can appreciate the increased inherent risk of even day VFR formation flight versus single ship.

[cgzro]

With proper training it likely reduces risks when deploying more than a couple of planes. It was not invented for fun, its a very effecient way to move a bunch of planes around especially for effecient takeoff and landing and im guessing it was much safer for the newbies to be following an expert in bad weather cross countries etc.

Having done a few cross countries with other Pitts I can certainly see the benefits. One guy does the nav and radio work, the others fly and spot other traffic and if you have a problem there are more eyes and brains to help out. Actually there is a great youtube video of a military jet flame out and the lead bringing him to a dead stick landing, talking the newbie through everything while staying a bit off his wing.

[PilotDAR]

My mentor Bill (ex of Red Arrows) had excellent super 8 movies from the 1970's I'm guessing. Several were he and his buddy ferrying new Hawker Hunters from England to India (12 trips to take 24 aircraft). One movie he films his buddy on arcing final, scenery behind, with speed brakes, flaps, then gear coming down, then slow to final approach, gentle flare, and a beautiful touchdown, followed by taxiing off the runway. Simple, but great movies...

I confirmed with Bill my belief that these were all single seat Hunters - they were. "Who was filming as you landed then?" I asked... He had. He said he was so used to flying formation with his buddy, he just did everything his buddy did, as he saw it through the viewfinder, and the plane landed. Very cool...

[Rockie]

Close formation take offs and landings are more efficient in IFR because they move more airplanes in a shorter time frame but they are definitely not less risky. In day VFR the preferred option is a stream takeoff because it is actually quicker with more than two planes, more fluid and safer.

Flying in a defensive tactical formation does increase lookout but as the planes get closer together more attention needs to be devoted to station keeping and less to other things including lookout. In close formation especially in cloud or at night station keeping becomes your only focus.

[Rockie]

I confirmed with Bill my belief that these were all single seat Hunters - they were. "Who was filming as you landed then?" I asked... He had. He said he was so used to flying formation with his buddy, he just did everything his buddy did, as he saw it through the viewfinder, and the plane landed. Very cool...

Years ago a U.S. Fighter flew into the ground because the pilot was looking through a camera view finder which distorted his perspective and depth perception. If your mentor was actually doing that in close formation he's lucky he and the other guy survived.

[AirFrame]

Regrettably, North Shore, I think you and the other moderators issued a permanent ban to the one person who frequented this forum who was perfectly qualified to answer your questions.

Qualified, yes. Unfortunately, his ideas with respect to what threshold of qualification was necessary before one could even remotely be considered "safe" left a lot to be desired. Essentially, if you weren't him, you weren't safe. But he is a darn good pilot, and I digress from the original thread.

Interesting that formation flying is a lot like threads on AvCanada... Lead starts off with the first post, 2, 3, 4, and 5 usually join up in line pretty quick and tight to the topic. 6 throws something from left field and the conversation diverges, and everyone has to work to bring it back into formation again. After that, each post off topic is like an errant wind gust disrupting the formation, and each post on topic after that is like the formation working to get back into position. Eventually enough errant wind gusts blow through and someone calls "knock it off..."

Back on topic though... I don't know exactly how the Snowbirds organize themselves, but in general flights are set up in elements of two airplanes, that are joined into wings of four airplanes, and finally into whatever your final flight formation is. The huge 39-plane formations they do at Oshkosh are done this way. It takes a long time to bring all those planes together. Thankfully the goal is only to fly in a straight line.

The mantra is "never take your eyes off lead". You're always looking at your leader, who will be ahead of you (line astern) and possibly to one side (echelon). If you're on the right side of lead and there is another wingman on the left, you might glance over at them occasionally to see how you're lined up, but your leader is still your main reference. If you're in the "slot" directly on the centerline behind your leader, your only reference is the plane whose tail you don't want to cut off directly in front of (and above) you. If you're further back in the formation, your leader doesn't change nor what you're supposed to be doing... You just get additional references that you see by looking "through" your leader, that let you check your position and spacing in the group.

[Schooner69A]

Further to what Airframe wrote: in days gone by, the Golden Centennaires took off and landed as a unit (8 plane). The Snowbirds did the same for many seasons, but are now departing in lesser numbered formations (vics of three?) and forming up in the air.

John

[PilotDAR]

looking through a camera view finder which distorted his perspective and depth perception.

Yes, I agree... Not to justify, but my friend was filming the formation aircraft landing, not his own. Not something I would advocate for any pilot to do, but to me a demonstration of the fact that a well briefed and skilled formation pair can depend upon one and other to get two planes safely onto the runway.

I did try to get those movies following his passing, but they were lost to time....

[Nark]

North,
All are lost excellent post's.

I just came off a mission, of which 5.9 of 6 hours were all formation.
Not aerial demonstration worthy of the Blue Angels (sorry, I'm biased). But a lot of work none the less.

As Rockie stated, leads job is much more involved than point and go. He has to be aware of how the formation is pulling up behind him. If he turns at 30* bank, trail has to bank more, and either climb or descend (depending if they are staggered left or right and which way is turned).
With that in mind, it takes energy, and that can cause a lot of 'whip-saw' or "whoa-boys" down the line.

The largest formation I've done is 6 ship. Trail tends to be easier because really, your just following #5. My technique is to look with one eyeball on #5 and the other eyeball on #1.

Military formations really have a tactical advantage depending on the specific "tactic" your trying to employ. Rockie stated a few, but I want to add another few:
Picture a nice tight (2-3 rotor disks in my case) flight heading down a valley. We are loud beast's but if you can't see us (let's say we are in a mountains shadow). Chances are you cant differentiate exactly how many are in that formation. (There is no rising and fading of individual aircraft)

Now, to switch it up a little, let's say you are flying in known bad guy country. You don't want to fly nice and tight, because if bad guys aims for #1 ship, through physics and mostly bad luck, it will hit #2 ship.
So ideally you want to fly as sloppy as you can. Vary altitude and airspeed, and distance. It's really hard to hit a moving target.

Now add in Night Vision Goggles and drop to 25' above the tree tops. That's were the fun in formation flying really is.

[Meatservo]

Probably be no problem for me. I'm awesome at that kind of shit.

[Rockie]

Probably be no problem for me. I'm awesome at that kind of shit.

Well you know...when you got it you got it. Hard to explain raw talent to those that don't got it...

[Meatservo]

[Big Pistons Forever]

Good to see you guys don't have modesty as one of your faults