Next few days.....

[Rockie]

The movement is finally beginning.

Yes it has, and you're right. This was not the place to dredge up this old argument again.

[777longhaul]

DP

We are all happy (FP60 and NON FP60 like Doug) that there is progression for all the pilots, junior, middle, senior. That is a given. Sometimes its faster than others, but it is always there,(progression) just like death and taxes.

You are not versed on the realities of the offers that Raymond Hall (FP60) made to AC and acpa. They were many, and they were VERY reasonable, humble, and not sought because the FP60 wanted to screw anyone. There were offers, to direct the massive savings to the junior/middle pilots. The massive savings, were taken by AC, and given up (paid for) by ALL the pilots at AC. That was a total cluster fk. Over 300 million on the pension issue alone!!

It really went off the rails to say the least.

Never ever forget, it was AC that MADE acpa, sign onto a 50-50 liability to get AC to back acpa!!!!! AC must have been on the floor laughing that day. For acpa, it was the only way they could get any traction, to delay and hopefully win the day. That decision, is still pending. The FCA (3 judges) (Federal Court of Appeals) has yet to release their findings from the Jan. 20 2015 one day "special hearing" as they called it. If....that goes against AC/acpa, AC will just laugh, and look at acpa, and say, well we tried, now acpa will be on the hook for 50% of anything that goes from there. If the FCA goes against FP60, then their gamble will have paid off, well sorta, they sold the farm for the money that they were going to get on the pension savings, contract etc etc. So, many have already paid, and ....may have to yet. However, many in the acpa office, will not pay, as they have managed to line the pay check, and get out of AC before any possible action comes down.

Never ever think that we are Not happy for all of you at AC. There is progression, on new aircraft, not the old junkers that many of us built the airline with, but nice new safe equipment. Good on ya, and all the rest.

Raymond Hall really tried, and tried, to get AC and acpa to see that the Federal Government were going to change the law because it was discriminatory. The Feds changed it, and now the FP60 group are waiting to see if the courts think it was discriminatory. How can they say no to FP60, when the Federal Government, after exhaustive effort, ruled, that it was plainly discriminatory?
If the law is truly blind in its ruling on justice, then AC will have won over acpa, really think about that at FL390 on a long trip. Was that AC plan all along, they.....are not stupid in that regard.

AC took acpa in, cleaned them out, and the dumped them back in their own mess, with costs, to see how it plays out. Every pilot at AC lost, including the FP60 group. One day it will reach a conclusion, probably sooner than later. But....who knows, in the mean time, enjoy the new birds, they are fantastic, and it is a great company to work for.

[Doug Moore]

You've got quite the "cheerleeding section" Doug Moore. Great work justifying the situation.

I'm sure none of the 40+ YOS guys are losing any sleep over things, and those junior waiting in the wings can do nothing but watch......... I'm sure they're all revelling in their "extended run".

Just remember that the "lottery win" has a cost, and they are not bearing it.

DP

FWIW.....If things had been different, and layoffs had been in store, would any of them had taken retirement a little earlier to prevent a junior pilot with a young family and a new mortgage from being thrown out into the street?

We all know the answer to that question. The "moral high road" is only theirs by chance.

Once again, you’ve missed the point, duke. I haven’t attempted to “justify” any situation. I have expressed a point of view that I hope others will examine and consider. However, I have learned over the years that while some people can change their mind, others mind change. It’s how they handle either situation that defines who they are.

Speaking of “FWIW” … and things being different, you apparently weren’t around at AC when the pilot group was facing lay-offs in the early 90’s. The senior pilots agreed to take a pay cut in order that something like 246 junior pilots could keep working, and they did so for several years as I recall. That’s how the pilots at AC used to look after each other. But that was then …

So as to the question you so righteously posed above … to which “we all know the answer”, clearly by the example just noted, you and others who are like-minded are not part of the “we”. As to the “moral high road”, given the animosity that you have expressed in the past, I suspect that “we” (that’s you and me) are on two separate roads that are paved with completely different intentions.

I agree that the good news upon which this thread was started has been forgotten. I’m very happy for everyone, including yourself, that things are looking up at AC. Enjoy the airplanes and the people with whom you work, the end of it all will come soon enough.

Cheers,

[Raymond Hall]

If those who have championed the FP60 cause on this forum had approached the issue with only slightly more grace, instead of a sense of self-entitled rightousness, guys like me would never have stepped into the fray.

I have no idea of which particular posts, made by whom, to which you refer. However, speaking for myself only, my participation on this Forum was and always has been to provide facts without emotion--facts without any appearance of "self-entitled righteousness." Go back through the archive and ask yourself how much more clear could I possibly have been about the factual basis underpinning the potential adverse consequences to ACPA members, given the course of action ultimately chosen?

I not only made hundreds of posts to fill the almost total void of factual information provided by ACPA, but I maintained a presence here to answer to any inadvertent misrepresentation of facts by members of this Forum. Pilots had a right to know the facts and they still have a right to know the facts, in order that they be able to make informed decisions about issues that would ultimately affect them.

[Old fella]

The movement is finally beginning.

Yes it has, and you're right. This was not the place to dredge up this old argument again.

Referencing the summer season and BBQ analogy, time to take it(FP60) off – it’s done!!

[777longhaul]

Old Fella

Hope you enjoy your BQ. Check the hamburgers, they are done, however, we at FP60 are NOT.

[altiplano]

Is this really all a "777longhaul" driver has to do in retirement? Provoke and troll on an internet forum?

Things change better or worse.. meh... But it's done. Get a life, you were early for the boat and missed it, don't drag down the rest with your endless sense of entitlement.

[Old fella]

Old Fella

Hope you enjoy your BQ. Check the hamburgers, they are done, however, we at FP60 are NOT.

That's why it's hard to figure out the constant ranting on your airline's FP 60 from both sides of this issue no matter what the initial topic. It always comes back to this rant, I mean pilots at your airline can now continue doing their jobs to 65 yrs old if they choose to do so for whatever reason. Take the FP60 issue off the AC BBQ, its a done deal.

[43S/172E]

Old Fella +1 and very well said!