WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

[#37]

If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected.

Always a positive move to shove head firmly into sand and cover it with the "entitlement" sand.

[jjj]

The five choices of; move, commute, downgrade, bypass, quit were unnecessarily enshrined.

There were other solutions tabled and were ignored. The difference at WestJet was that these were choices that were imposed after the fact. This is not a case of somebody joining an airline and then disliking the consequences of business choices. These ultimatums were unrealistic creations of narrow minded policy makers.

These are not whiners - they're real people with families that had the rules arbitrarily changed. The stress is palpable and not to be dismissed.

So mister retired aviator of 35 years that only had to move 8 times - you don't know what you're talking about in this situation.

Have a nice day.

JJJ

[complexintentions]

My apologies to the fine readers, my earlier post was deleted due to I assume, my colourful language describing my opinion of someone tossing around their T4 info during a union drive. I shall rephrase.

My query still stands: has anyone flown with the good Captain Robin Murray lately? (Surely I can use his name since it's plainly mentioned in the CBC news article?)

And did he pay for lunch? (Given that he's apparently quite open about making 315K/yr...)

[True North]

If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected.

Always a positive move to shove head firmly into sand and cover it with the "entitlement" sand.

Then do please help us understand how you were "betrayed".

[True North]

The five choices of; move, commute, downgrade, bypass, quit were unnecessarily enshrined.

There were other solutions tabled and were ignored. The difference at WestJet was that these were choices that were imposed after the fact. This is not a case of somebody joining an airline and then disliking the consequences of business choices. These ultimatums were unrealistic creations of narrow minded policy makers.

These are not whiners - they're real people with families that had the rules arbitrarily changed. The stress is palpable and not to be dismissed.

So mister retired aviator of 35 years that only had to move 8 times - you don't know what you're talking about in this situation.

Have a nice day.

JJJ

I put the same challenge to you as #37, educate us. Tell us about the "narrow minded policy makers" and their "unrealistic creations". I'm very curious. What are these other solutions that were tabled and ignored? I already know about the Ports experiment that failed miserably. What else was there?

[jjj]

Ports were not a failure - they were continuing to evolve. Ask the many fine Pilots and FAs from Edmonton and Winnipeg what they thought of their ports?

It was never proven that ports even on a very limited level could not work with bases. It was a policy based on bias and in reaction to a very bad winter. Perhaps bases should have been started years sooner when the pilots wanted them.

The base committee warned WestJet that they were not going to be able to build a base so quickly in YYZ. Without some form of organic growth in the beginning you're creating commuters not soldiers on the ground where you need. The base committee was right and their recommends were dismissed.

The policy makers initially offered about 6K for a cross country move. The pilots fought for more than 50K. They eventually shook hands on 45K. WestJet put a red pen to that and released 40K!

It took almost 2 years but now the WJPA has squeezed out 52K.

Anyhow - that is the tip of the iceberg - I think you get the idea.

So True North, thanks for chiming in and have a nice day. Keep up the good work there son.

JJJ

[jjj]

My apologies to the fine readers, my earlier post was deleted due to I assume, my colourful language describing my opinion of someone tossing around their T4 info during a union drive. I shall rephrase.

My query still stands: has anyone flown with the good Captain Robin Murray lately? (Surely I can use his name since it's plainly mentioned in the CBC news article?)

And did he pay for lunch? (Given that he's apparently quite open about making 315K/yr...)

Complex.

Captain Murray is a hell of a guy. Even the people that are pissed about the article still respect him. The article blew up and was a misfire and a backfire at the same time.

'Nuff said.

[#37]

If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected.

Always a positive move to shove head firmly into sand and cover it with the "entitlement" sand.

Then do please help us understand how you were "betrayed".

Ha ha, I sure wasn't. Figure it out.
Doesn't take a brain surgeon to read betrayal, anger and disappointment between the lines of recent news articles, this thread and others. Doesn't take a psychologist to know that calling it entitled or telling people to suck it up won't help the situation and is rarely true.
You seem close to the action, if you can't figure it out, I certainly can't help you.

[True North]

Ports were not a failure - they were continuing to evolve. Ask the many fine Pilots and FAs from Edmonton and Winnipeg what they thought of their ports?

It was never proven that ports even on a very limited level could not work with bases. It was a policy based on bias and in reaction to a very bad winter. Perhaps bases should have been started years sooner when the pilots wanted them.

The base committee warned WestJet that they were not going to be able to build a base so quickly in YYZ. Without some form of organic growth in the beginning you're creating commuters not soldiers on the ground where you need. The base committee was right and their recommends were dismissed.

The policy makers initially offered about 6K for a cross country move. The pilots fought for more than 50K. They eventually shook hands on 45K. WestJet put a red pen to that and released 40K!

It took almost 2 years but now the WJPA has squeezed out 52K.

Anyhow - that is the tip of the iceberg - I think you get the idea.

So True North, thanks for chiming in and have a nice day. Keep up the good work there son.

JJJ

That's one side of the story.

[True North]

If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected.

Always a positive move to shove head firmly into sand and cover it with the "entitlement" sand.

Then do please help us understand how you were "betrayed".

Ha ha, I sure wasn't. Figure it out.
Doesn't take a brain surgeon to read betrayal, anger and disappointment between the lines of recent news articles, this thread and others. Doesn't take a psychologist to know that calling it entitled or telling people to suck it up won't help the situation and is rarely true.
You seem close to the action, if you can't figure it out, I certainly can't help you.

Typical politcal/union drivel. Can't answer the question so just regurgitate your previous statement.

I'm not sure what action you think I'm close to to. The golf course is shut down for the day.

Some of you guys are truly pathetic.

[KK7]

Weren't bases voted on, and passed, by the pilots?

What would have been different if a union was in place at the time?

[jjj]

Ports were not a failure - they were continuing to evolve. Ask the many fine Pilots and FAs from Edmonton and Winnipeg what they thought of their ports?

It was never proven that ports even on a very limited level could not work with bases. It was a policy based on bias and in reaction to a very bad winter. Perhaps bases should have been started years sooner when the pilots wanted them.

The base committee warned WestJet that they were not going to be able to build a base so quickly in YYZ. Without some form of organic growth in the beginning you're creating commuters not soldiers on the ground where you need. The base committee was right and their recommends were dismissed.

The policy makers initially offered about 6K for a cross country move. The pilots fought for more than 50K. They eventually shook hands on 45K. WestJet put a red pen to that and released 40K!

It took almost 2 years but now the WJPA has squeezed out 52K.

Anyhow - that is the tip of the iceberg - I think you get the idea.

So True North, thanks for chiming in and have a nice day. Keep up the good work there son.

JJJ

That's one side of the story.

Well then True North - please do share a snippet of the other side of the story - I'm all ears.

JJJ

[#37]

Then do please help us understand how you were "betrayed".

Ha ha, I sure wasn't. Figure it out.
Doesn't take a brain surgeon to read betrayal, anger and disappointment between the lines of recent news articles, this thread and others. Doesn't take a psychologist to know that calling it entitled or telling people to suck it up won't help the situation and is rarely true.
You seem close to the action, if you can't figure it out, I certainly can't help you.

Typical politcal/union drivel. Can't answer the question so just regurgitate your previous statement.

I'm not sure what action you think I'm close to to. The golf course is shut down for the day.

Some of you guys are truly pathetic.

Oh, this is getting better all the time! Which union am I driveling for, and what actually constitutes "union drivel"?
Hooooo wheeee!!!!
I answered the question, I have not been betrayed!!!! Can you have a go at my question?

[True North]

Ports were not a failure - they were continuing to evolve. Ask the many fine Pilots and FAs from Edmonton and Winnipeg what they thought of their ports?

It was never proven that ports even on a very limited level could not work with bases. It was a policy based on bias and in reaction to a very bad winter. Perhaps bases should have been started years sooner when the pilots wanted them.

The base committee warned WestJet that they were not going to be able to build a base so quickly in YYZ. Without some form of organic growth in the beginning you're creating commuters not soldiers on the ground where you need. The base committee was right and their recommends were dismissed.

The policy makers initially offered about 6K for a cross country move. The pilots fought for more than 50K. They eventually shook hands on 45K. WestJet put a red pen to that and released 40K!

It took almost 2 years but now the WJPA has squeezed out 52K.

Anyhow - that is the tip of the iceberg - I think you get the idea.

So True North, thanks for chiming in and have a nice day. Keep up the good work there son.

JJJ

That's one side of the story.

Well then True North - please do share a snippet of the other side of the story - I'm all ears.

JJJ

Seriously? You want me, some guy on the Internet to explain it to you? Why don't you really educate yourself and go to the source. Your company has a stated open door policy and the guys that I know in your flight ops management all seem pretty approachable. I'm sure any one of them would be happy to sit down with you. I'm serious here, you guys are heading down a road with a lot of potholes in it. Doing that without getting ALL the information you need is folly.

[True North]

Oh, this is getting better all the time! Which union am I driveling for, and what actually constitutes "union drivel"?
Hooooo wheeee!!!!
I answered the question, I have not been betrayed!!!! Can you have a go at my question?

Hmm, #37. Yup, that's you.

"If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected".

That's a quote from #37 above so I'm pretty sure that's still you. Now you're saying you weren't betrayed. So you're just parroting the party line then? Or have you just forgotten you meds?

[jjj]

True North,

Have you made the assumption that I'm a union card signer?

[#37]

Oh, this is getting better all the time! Which union am I driveling for, and what actually constitutes "union drivel"?
Hooooo wheeee!!!!
I answered the question, I have not been betrayed!!!! Can you have a go at my question?

Hmm, #37. Yup, that's you.

"If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected".

That's a quote from #37 above so I'm pretty sure that's still you. Now you're saying you weren't betrayed. So you're just parroting the party line then? Or have you just forgotten you meds?

"By those affected". Not me.
Seriously, is your reading comprehension level at about grade 5?

I can see I've been having a nice chat with a very one dimensional person, Still haven't answered my question. What union am I driveling for and what exactly constitutes "union drivel"?

[Red1]

The thing is a union wouldn't have saved the ports... the company decides where it needs to have its crew.. the pilot organization only aids in helping build the policy.

The base conversation was happening for years as WestJet, it was always the white elephant in the room. To say that other things weren't looked at is naive. Everyone new it would eventually come, just didn't think it would effect them. There's no doubt it could have been done better, but they are here, its done. I don't envy the choice some had to make or have yet to make, but you still have a choice, its your choice, and its not forever. I understand that many made life choices on the belief that ports were forever, I am sure the same is true for people who worked for C3, Sky Service etc. Its rather cliche to say the only constant in aviation is change, but its a cliche for a reason. In the long run the bases had to happen (especially with the new duty day rules, assuming they eventually come). Whether it was five years ago, today, or five years from now, a group of people were going to be personally effected by this change.

[Mostly Harmless]

Weren't bases voted on, and passed, by the pilots?

What would have been different if a union was in place at the time?

Hi KK7.

There was no vote on bases. It was a top down decision.

Since your second question is in the realm of hypothetical, none of us can factually answer it. The probable answer is, no.

True North: I have been reading through this thread and I am curious about something, if you would be so kind. Why is a person who does not work for the airline and who is retired, so extremely passionate about this issue?

Your company has a stated open door policy and the guys that I know in your flight ops management all seem pretty approachable. I'm sure any one of them would be happy to sit down with you.

Weeelllll.... it depends on how you define open door.

[True North]

True North: I have been reading through this thread and I am curious about something, if you would be so kind. Why is a person who does not work for the airline and who is retired, so extremely passionate about this issue?

Fair question. Firstly, I'm hardly extremely passionate, mostly just bored right now because the weather is not conducive to golfing. And I must admit, in general and especially with pilots, I have zero tolerance for whiners and complainers and the oh, woe is me crowd. I do like to poke them.

I've been around a long time. I was around when WestJet was just a good idea and I know a couple of the founding fathers. I had the opportunity to get on right at the beginning but I had just gotten my dream job so I passed. I knew WestJet was going to be successful, it just felt right and I loved the idea of employee ownership. What I didn't pass on was the opportunity to by WJ stock as soon as I could, and I bought a bunch. Best, smartest investment I ever made. It returned an obscene profit which is significantly contributing to my very comfortable retirement. Thank you for that. I also have quite a few very good friends working there. Some are line pilots, one is a checker and one is in flight ops management. So yeah, I have a bit of a soft spot for WestJet. I started flying on WJ as a passenger, excuse me - a guest, whenever I could to support the new guy and my investment. It was a refreshing change from the drab and surly service at Air Canada at the time, and most U.S. carriers for that matter. I've noticed a change over the last couple of years and I'm sorry to say it but right now, Air Canada is eating your lunch. They have really picked up their game and you guys would do well to take notice.

I spent the last part of my career managing a corporate flight department that included a BBJ in the fleet. Over the years I have met several WestJet Chief Pilots and Standards pilots at various industry symposiums and conferences. They all impressed me as really top notch people and were always willing to share a beer and technical information, and sometimes more. So through my professional and personal contacts at WJ I have heard a great deal, from both sides of the fence.

WestJet is still a great company providing really good jobs. I'm sure nobody wants that to change but from the outside looking in, it sure seems like some of you guys are intent on messing that up. Talk about "betrayal", forced commuting and all the other BS paints you guys in a very poor light. All your perceived problems, every one of them, are first world problems. Some of you guys need to take a deep breath, take a step back and focus on what you have instead of what you don't have. Then go hug you wife or your kids and remember what's really important.