Beren's Band roasts air ambulance service in the media

[stef]

They need to use unlit portions of the runway for performance credit so they can't go at night.

[MUSKEG]

Ah so finally we have it. As I suspected the real reason was conveniently overlooked for sensationalism. Could it be that the response to her request for the jet was " we don't fly in Barons at night"? Leave out a few words and it sounds a lot different. Personally, as PIC I'm as responsible to get my ass and those in my crew home to our families as I am to get your ass to wherever you want to go. Nothing to be gained by going from hero to zero in emergency situations.

[5x5]

I just quickly read the last 3 pages of this thread, and I cant see where anyone on either side of this issue suggested that breaking Regs was the way to fly Medevac?

Maybe you should have read the first page? The following was what you wrote there. The first highlight you specifically said you broke regs. The second one you imply it, because how can you push weather besides going beyond minimums? And finally you said you had different limitations, but any medevac crew should pretty much be able to fly to minimums so what different limitations can you have?

Call me a cowboy if you like, but human life matters to me and always has. I take great pride in some of the missions I flew as a medevac pilot, and I know for a fact that my actions as a pilot, saved at least 4 lives that I was directly involved with. Yes we broke duty time, yes we pushed wx, but we felt we had a job to do...much like ambulance drivers on the street. If there is a snowstorm and the roads are closed because the cops say its too dangerous...do the ambulance drivers then just park their cars and let people die? No, they push past their 15 hour day and get the job done. People count on medevac pilots to be there for them and I always believed that we had "different" limitations than on a regular flight. Maybe I took my job too seriously? Maybe I was wrong to push even my own limits of comfort, but when a life is on the line, I feel we have to push to give them a shot. Yet even more than this, why wasn't a light twin at the ready, to cover in cases exactly like this one?? Something we should ALL think about!

My $0.02 worth.
Fly Safe all.
FTB

[flyinthebug]

I just quickly read the last 3 pages of this thread, and I cant see where anyone on either side of this issue suggested that breaking Regs was the way to fly Medevac?

Maybe you should have read the first page? The following was what you wrote there. The first highlight you specifically said you broke regs. The second one you imply it, because how can you push weather besides going beyond minimums? And finally you said you had different limitations, but any medevac crew should pretty much be able to fly to minimums so what different limitations can you have?

Call me a cowboy if you like, but human life matters to me and always has. I take great pride in some of the missions I flew as a medevac pilot, and I know for a fact that my actions as a pilot, saved at least 4 lives that I was directly involved with. Yes we broke duty time, yes we pushed wx, but we felt we had a job to do...much like ambulance drivers on the street. If there is a snowstorm and the roads are closed because the cops say its too dangerous...do the ambulance drivers then just park their cars and let people die? No, they push past their 15 hour day and get the job done. People count on medevac pilots to be there for them and I always believed that we had "different" limitations than on a regular flight. Maybe I took my job too seriously? Maybe I was wrong to push even my own limits of comfort, but when a life is on the line, I feel we have to push to give them a shot. Yet even more than this, why wasn't a light twin at the ready, to cover in cases exactly like this one?? Something we should ALL think about!

My $0.02 worth.
Fly Safe all.
FTB

All I will say is if you flew for a living 20+ years ago, you would know that it wasn't us pilots that WANTED to push limits at times...but Chief Pilots & Ops Mgrs back then (some not all) tended to do all the pushing for us. I had one CP say to me at the end of a LONG day, that we were the only medevac aircraft available in the province at that moment, and if we didn't go, someone would die. We took that seriously and yes we pushed duty times, and I pushed my personal limits as far as weather...but how does that equate to me busting mins? I may have pushed to get where I was going, but if my NDB approach had an MDA of 540', we didn't dip below published mins, even in the old days...at least I didn't. Some did and still do, but MDA/DH was always a number I didn't mess with. That was a hard number and I can honestly say I never once "dipped down" below mins to see if I could see a light. If there was no visual contact at MDA, we initiated the missed and got the hell outta Dodge. Why do some of you think we were all flying cowboys who didn't give a rats ass about regs? I said we pushed our personal limits, but never said I broke the regs or mins to get it in.

I stand by my comments on page 1...as I DO feel asd a medevac pilot, we have a very important job to do, when human life is on the line. Unless you have done it, you wouldn't understand what it feels like to have someone die in your aircraft, and have to console the Flight Nurse and often the families who came along on the flight to the hospital. If you are all flying around like zombies with no concern whether its pop and chips in the back or a humans life in your hands, you really shouldn't be flying medevac and my guess is you haven't flown a single mission in that capacity.

I am growing tired of this thread already. Someone at Lifeflight dropped the ball, and that's just a fact.

Attack me and my comments all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that someone died because Plan B wasn't in place...and I assure you that someone will be answering for that very soon.

Fly safe all.
FTB

[CID]

I am growing tired of this thread already. Someone at Lifeflight dropped the ball, and that's just a fact.

Uh...no. That can't be surmised by the information available. The guy driving the hit and run vehicle dropped the ball. THAT is a fact.

[jschnurr]

They need to use unlit portions of the runway for performance credit so they can't go at night.

Why don't they just move the runway lights to the ends of the gravel? The published distance is 2888 ft but the length of gravel is 3800 ft. Why do you need 912 feet of unlit runway surface?

[switchflicker]

Zoning

[stef]

I'm just a pilot but did a quick search and found this tc document on runway design criteria. I suspect 3.1.7 answers your question.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... .htm#3.1.7

[fish4life]

They need to use unlit portions of the runway for performance credit so they can't go at night.

Why don't they just move the runway lights to the ends of the gravel? The published distance is 2888 ft but the length of gravel is 3800 ft. Why do you need 912 feet of unlit runway surface?

Obstacles like the hotel are probably involved

[esp803]

FTB,

I'm curious how one pushes their personal limits without exceeding minimums? And how do you decide that minimums are a hard limit and LDA is not? Both are published minimums, both are padded by a safety margin, both IMHO shouldn't be pushed.

For the record, I've flown medevacs, and I've had one that we flew who was not stable and did save his life, it felt great. But that did not involve any limits on flying... it was a paperwork gamble more than anything. I maintain my heartless philosophy that anything behind the door is cargo, and really the only thing I care about up front is my own ass, which despite being heartless and petty, has worked out pretty well for any client, medevac or not, who has flown on an airplane I was in charge of.

It's a very slippery slope deciding which numbers to push and which ones are hard limits. The easiest method is simply deciding that all published minimums are hard limits, be it in the CAP or the AFM. If that's something that one can't handle, I suggest a type of flying that is not Medevac or anything else that adds perceived pressures.

E

[Inverted2]

Why didn't they send a frickin' helicopter instead?

I'm shocked the pilots weren't willing to land a jet on a tiny, rolling 2800' gravel runway at night......(sarcasm)

[Liquid Charlie]

So where is the operational control here -- so the pretend-a-jet can't land there at night - so why weren't the people who count aware of this fact and if there is going to be equal service for all then set up the infrastructure to do so -- likely means a helicopter based somewhere amongst the communities to cover situations where a fixed wing can't respond or as suggested get a type that can land at all the communities -- sure it comes down to the dollar but there is also a commitment to supply service -- the blame lies on the people in charge of the ambulance service (other than the driver of the vehicle) they have a responsibility to ferret out the weaknesses and fix them along with keeping the health professionals and communities aware of all limitations so they can be addressed --

They could take a lesson from the north (Arctic for all the southern types) -- there are services available like wx and even RSC's and fuel if needed prior to launch along with a radio/wx observer if conditions dictate -- damn the north end of our provinces are so far behind the times -- now that is where the true enema is to be found

['effin hippie]

Pretty short article.

Not much to see here.

Are we really to believe that this is the first time in recorded history the community of Beren's River needed a medevac after dark? Seriously?

Every system has its limitations. A medevac program can do some things, not all. The guy expired 150 mins after he arrived at the clinic. He was in bad shape. Lots of places up north there is simply no way a doctor with the right equipment and fluids could even get to the community within that limit. You wanna keep a particular A/C on standby, along with crew etc, for the once every few years you hafta get a Dr and plasma to Ft. St. Lake within 2 hrs? Fine. What's it cost? What do you want to give up to maintain that capability?

I will guarantee you every single entity involved knew about no jets at night. Certainly the band and the clinic admin. Maybe the nurses on duty snoozed through that meeting, whatever, they were heros as long as they could be and when back-up didn't come it was hard to take. I'd be the same. How much time did that chief spend agitating for better r/w facilities during her tenure?

The system didn't fail, it was asked to do something it couldn't. Maybe we want to spend more resources to prevent this from happening again, as previously mentioned a longer better lit r/w with RNAV would probably be the most effective way to better integrate Beren's into the existing system. It's your and my tax dollars, is that most effective way to spend a few million? I don't have any idea. (Personally I think we could ace CATSA and spend that money on almost anything else and be better off, but that's a different thread.)

It's a sad story, but it's not a scandal. Systems can be altered and improved, maybe this is a time for changes. The truth though is that there is a dollar value on human life and losing one doesn't always justify expending additional resources.

Ef

[switchflicker]

Very well said Ef. Thank you.

[Meatservo]

Yeah. That's pretty much it.