Airliner on fire in YYZ

[Jetman28]

I thought that I read somewhere that 23 was notam'd closed until the 5th, not sure about the app. for 24R.

[cdlu]

...They went off the end by 200 meters and ironically, if he had asked for 24R, he would have had 200 meters more runway to land on.

I don't think this would have helped too much. During a press conference today, TSB investigator Real Levasseur claimed the plane was travelling at 80 knots when it left the runway. At that speed it could have made good use of a few thousand more feet.

Can anyone here figure anything from the pictures that have circulated of the aircraft shortly after the accident with regards to the flaps, spoilers, or engines' reverse thrust, or anything else? I note that the plane did not take out the approach lights at the end of the runway, but was not too far from them, either, so directional control was probably reasonably good.

I am but a student pilot working toward my private, but I am wondering if there is anything an aircraft of the size of an A340 can really do if its various braking systems fail, especially in wet weather?

In something like a 172, you can get the plane stopped pretty quickly by keeping the nose up, for example, and making the whole aircraft an airbrake (think soft-field), but I'm assuming if you were to try this with a 340, when the lift finally dies out the nose's descent back to the runway would be more than a little jarring, if you could do something like that at all in the first place...

Also, earlier this discussion, someone posted a radio archive from 132.8MHz at Toronto. In the file immediately previous to it, (same archive, 1530 instead of 1600 in the URL), 358 was told to go over to 118.35, which I assume is standard. Does anyone have a recording of 118.35MHz from that afternoon at Toronto?

[flyinhigh]

alright, heres a question. Air France goes off the runway, and this happens. a tradigy indeed.

Everyone is sayin that it was bad decision making that they chose that runway, well I guess that every aircraft that landed there in the pervious 5 min, and all the aircraft that were on final in sequence have bad pilots as well, not knowing how to make proper decisions where they should land as well than right? at least that is what I am reading.

So is every pilot in those aircraft bad at decision making as well?

[Pachanga]

alright, heres a question. Air France goes off the runway, and this happens. a tradigy indeed.

Everyone is sayin that it was bad decision making that they chose that runway, well I guess that every aircraft that landed there in the pervious 5 min, and all the aircraft that were on final in sequence have bad pilots as well, not knowing how to make proper decisions where they should land as well than right? at least that is what I am reading.

So is every pilot in those aircraft bad at decision making as well?

I already brougth this up previously and no one seemed to acknowledge the same point.

[JigglyBus]

On the topic of fire crew arriving in 56 seconds....

Firstly, however long they took it was obviously quick enough, as EVERYONE survived. That should be the end of the argument there.

Secondly, if the fire depot is really 2 miles from the crash site, how can anyone really believe that the trucks got there in 56 seconds? Some quick math makes that 128 mph, average. Even if the guy were sitting in the truck, and floored it 0.3 seconds after they got the call, do you really think they could average 128mph to the crash site?? That's ridiculous.

2 to 3 minutes is still fantastic in my opinion, and clearly sufficient in this case.

[EI-EIO]

What was the last landing before AF358?

I was told BA92 diverted shortly before.

[Flying Nutcracker]

sounded like JZA8671 just before AF358 based on what I heard on the live atc thing.

[...]

Holly cow I am new to this sight I thought it was going to be a little more relevant than a bunch of pilots sitting around bashing one mfg or another....

Welcome to the Avcanada forums. Canada's leading cyber information centre.

By the way....It's a 'site'...not 'sight'. Since you're new...I'll let it ...'slide' One more thing...it's Holy NOT Holly...

So there Birdog why don’t you tell us all how the Airbus door/slide system works in comparison to Boeing and BAe or your favorite Aircraft....

Would you like the doors specs on the DC8-61,62 & 63 series? Also how about the L-1011 150 and 500 series? Which Boeing aircraft would you like to know that I worked on..747-200 757-200 ER's 737-400's. I have also been crew on A330's 200...The A330 has 2 RRengines in case you were wondering...you know being new and all.

Don’t forget to tell us all about girt bars, indication, door stops, hinges, construction of the doors, slide arming/unarming, methods of deployment and location of the slide pack itself...

Well, there are many different manners in which every company got it's certificxation for it's 'slides'. The B757 for instance have slide/rafts installed in their doors on most 757 depending on the options chosen. However, although in the late 80's this was a novel idea...to date these slide/rafts were never really certified by Transport Canada and actual rafts had to be brought in to meet the many many regs required to fly, in this example a B757 over seas. Thats why when you board a charter outfit in Canada that operated them you would find the exit row over head bins stuffed with these things. On the '57 rows 1 and 11 and 29 overhead bins on a 228 pax seating config were always filled because of the rafts.

So the term 'slide pack' you seemed to have used seems to be a little incomplete and thus I can not fully answer your question in full.

After you are done that you can expand all of our horizons and let us know how the structure surrounding the door area on a 340 is inferior to that of say a Boeing 737-200...

Regards

This is easier. The Airbus is made out of paper.

[bush pilot]

shazam!

[bush pilot]

Just happen to see a clip of tonight's news and get this

"breaking news about Air France's 340 that overshot the runway, reports were made that the co-pilot was flying, however we cannot confirm because the captain was still in the hospital with back injuries."

What the hell, I guess the co-pilot is only used for the checklist and to get the captain coffee. Infact I am surprised I do not see him going down the isle serving nuts!

[boeingboy]

It doesn't suprise me that some of the slides malfunctioned.

According to FAA statistics only 1 out of every 3 slide deployments actually works 100%

Now those stats are scary!

[lilfssister]

Okay...not a pilot, only a passenger/observer...but...if you're in a ravine with trees, bushes, rocks, etc...couldn't the slides get caught up in all that stuff and not deploy fully? I mean, if you're on a runway, on water or whatever (something somewhat level), sure they'd deploy fully, but if they're caught up in rocks/trees/bushes?

[Pachanga]

Maybe they had one of these...

[CD]

Except that photo is of a raft on a Boeing 737-700....

[Guido]

Latest Article I've seen:

TORONTO - Investigators trying to piece together why an Air
France jetliner crashed and burned at Canada's busiest airport said
Thursday they will interview the co-pilot first because the pilot
remains hospitalized and unable to answer questions.
Real Levasseur, leading the investigation by Canada's
Transportation Safety Board, said the captain of Flight 358 from
Paris was still in the hospital with back injuries.
He said he would not be questioned until doctors were
satisfied he was able to talk about Tuesday's crash, in which all
309 people on board escaped.
"I will not be talking to him until he is capable of
talking to us," Levasseur said.
The flight attendants - widely praised for helping
passengers escape the burning aircraft within two minutes of the
crash - also would be questioned, he said.
A dozen passengers remained hospitalized Thursday, some with
broken bones, but none apparently with life-threatening injuries.
Levasseur said the air crew did not declare an emergency to
air traffic controllers as the Airbus A340 approached the runway
Tuesday at 160 mph in heavy rains and lightning at about 4 p.m. It
then skidded about 200 yards off the runway, he said.
Preliminary evidence suggested there was nothing wrong with
the aircraft, but that still needed to be confirmed, Levasseur said.
The flight data and voice recorders - the so-called "black
boxes" - were recovered Wednesday and send to TSB headquarters
in Quebec.
Officials hope the recorders will provide clues to what
caused the accident at Lester B. Pearson International Airport on
the outskirts of Toronto.
All 309 passengers and crew escaped alive in an evacuation
that took less than two minutes. Air France said 22 people were
injured, while airport officials said 43 were hurt. The wreckage of
the jetliner was torn into three pieces and remained off the side of
Highway 401, where many of the passengers wandered after escaping
the wreckage.
Brian Lackey, vice president of operations for the Greater
Toronto Airport Authority, said Wednesday the jetliner had enough
fuel to divert to Montreal or another airport where the weather was
better, but "that's the pilot's decision."
The airport was under a "red alert," which
indicates potential for lightning and forces ground staff to remain
indoors, but does not prevent planes from landing or taking off.
Levasseur said the decision to land during a "red
alert" would be investigated.
He emphasized that wind shear likely was not a factor in the
crash - as has been speculated - because that usually would only
affect aircraft in flight. He also doubted lightning played a role.
Airport Fire Chief Mike Figliola said three-quarters of the
passengers and crew managed to escape in the 52 seconds it took for
emergency crews to arrive.
Air France chairman Jean-Cyril Spinetta praised the flight
crew for getting passengers out of the plane. He said the co-pilot,
who was in charge of the landing, had 10,700 hours of flying time,
and the 57-year-old pilot had 15,000 hours.

Sorry to pull a Blastor there, but there is confirmation of the under-a-minute-to-site claim.

[JigglyBus]

Well, then the depot can't be 2 miles from the site.

Not that this argument is really important anyways.

[yellowdogx]

Holly cow I am new to this sight I thought it was going to be a little more relevant than a bunch of pilots sitting around bashing one mfg or another....

Welcome to the Avcanada forums. Canada's leading cyber information centre.

By the way....It's a 'site'...not 'sight'. Since you're new...I'll let it ...'slide' One more thing...it's Holy NOT Holly...

So there Birdog why don’t you tell us all how the Airbus door/slide system works in comparison to Boeing and BAe or your favorite Aircraft....

Would you like the doors specs on the DC8-61,62 & 63 series? Also how about the L-1011 150 and 500 series? Which Boeing aircraft would you like to know that I worked on..747-200 757-200 ER's 737-400's. I have also been crew on A330's 200...The A330 has 2 RRengines in case you were wondering...you know being new and all.

Don’t forget to tell us all about girt bars, indication, door stops, hinges, construction of the doors, slide arming/unarming, methods of deployment and location of the slide pack itself...

Well, there are many different manners in which every company got it's certificxation for it's 'slides'. The B757 for instance have slide/rafts installed in their doors on most 757 depending on the options chosen. However, although in the late 80's this was a novel idea...to date these slide/rafts were never really certified by Transport Canada and actual rafts had to be brought in to meet the many many regs required to fly, in this example a B757 over seas. Thats why when you board a charter outfit in Canada that operated them you would find the exit row over head bins stuffed with these things. On the '57 rows 1 and 11 and 29 overhead bins on a 228 pax seating config were always filled because of the rafts.

So the term 'slide pack' you seemed to have used seems to be a little incomplete and thus I can not fully answer your question in full.

After you are done that you can expand all of our horizons and let us know how the structure surrounding the door area on a 340 is inferior to that of say a Boeing 737-200...

Regards

This is easier. The Airbus is made out of paper.

Great no mention anywhere in that long drawn out self servinng drival about the airbuss slides just some outdated boeng/douglas crap....

I am now done with this sight

[pokaroo]

What was the last landing before AF358?

I was told BA92 diverted shortly before.

The JZA RJ (rwy 24L) was the last to get in before AFR. Guys were already going to their alternates before AFR went off the end.

[...]

Great no mention anywhere in that long drawn out self servinng drival about the airbuss slides just some outdated boeng/douglas crap....

I am now done with this sight

Hey Dummy...for the last time it's a 'site' not a sight.

I suspected you had the wit of a wet dish cloth.

[pokaroo]

wow birddog nothing but class from you and who again do you fly for?

[pokaroo]

double post...oops

[FamilyGuy]

Apart from all you other ARMCHAIR quaterbacks lets get serious for a moment.

French Airline, french Crew, French Airplane (mostly) Lil Ol Canada can't read the data on the FDR so where do they send it..........FRANCE?????????

This is gonna get ugly real quick

[JigglyBus]

I'm personally glad yellowdogx is out of my sight.

[Croissant Wrench]

I recall a runway overrun by an A310 or A300 cargo plane about 10 or so years ago in Poland under similar conditions.

The accident investigation determined, among other things, that because of heavy rain and standing water the aircraft hydroplaned which prevented the reversing system from deploying normally since it is activated by a decelerating wheel speed value and during the hydroplane the wheel speed actually increased.

Does anyone know more about this system in the Airbus?

[...]

wow birddog nothing but class from you and who again do you fly for?

Thanks for taking out the time to write a reply. Welcome to Avcanada...the nations leader in aviation cyber information exchange.

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Have a great day and thanks for reading.