Fireboss down!

[boeingboy]

Pilot is OK. plane is under water.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2104596/water ... ntzi-lake/

[North Shore]

From CKNW news:

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/07/wate ... ntzi-lake/

Pilot is ok, thankfully.

That's 3 in two years now. One wonders how long that can continue without some drastic changes?

As XsBank wrote on another thread: It's just trees...

Be careful out there.

[CLwrench]

Correction North Shore...thats 4 in 13months.
Fly safe guys. Its just trees. They grow them everyday.

[goldeneagle]

Its just trees. They grow them everyday.

Tell that to the folks who lost houses to the fires this year.

[CLwrench]

Goldeneagle.....they build houses everyday too. Lives is what matters.

Trust me with your life...not your money or your wife.

[iflyforpie]

Yep, agree with CLwrench.... 1000 houses are not worth one life!

[Johnny#5]

I don't understand the "it's just trees" thing? So any fireboss pilot should just turn around and land, go in and read a book if they see a tree burning and they're told to put it out?

Were any of the fireboss/tractor accidents a result of pushing-the-envelope/cowboy flying?

[CLwrench]

Johnny
Its about the 5000 fires 3million ha to date in Canada. The thousand upon thousand of men and women working the ground, from all provinces plus four other countries. The airmen and women, engineers, tankerbase personel, fuelers, loadermen, rapatack and hack crews, military, hotel staff, housekeeping, your waitress, God bless the cooks.
Everyone already going the extra mile for weeks only to find themselves in the best situation when Shit happens. And this is just the beginning with 3 months til I see my kids again.
And because I am a cowboy to enlighten you ...simply go stand on a beach alone and try to stop the next tidal wave.Let all of us Ive listed and likely missed how that works out for you simply.

[DanWEC]

There are zero acceptable losses in Canadian wildfire fighting.

Especially the cooks!!
CLWrench, where are you? Based in NW Sask here.


The Fireboss is tested, but with a small capacity and many cycles in the circuit, something's bound to happen- but that's only my opinion. Zero acceptable losses but the odds do build despite the best efforts by good people.

If I'm not mistaken has there been zero heli accidents so far?

[CLwrench]

Hey Dan
Cougar told me how you guys are all hunkered down in the hangar there when the fire passed the airport. Wow. Were all thinkin about you guys. Here in AB fly safe

[Jean-Pierre]

The pilot is ok and that is the important thing. Silver lining is it is only a $2 million get dunked instead of $40 million again. The pilot life has no price. Something about the bombing operation can cause some mistakes. Of course most will say it is fatigue. They fly only in the summer. To do all your work in only a few month and you will be tired! Go 0 hours to 12 hours a day is a shock to a system if you aren't used to that. It is risk and some here say it might not be worth it.

[single_swine_herder]

The pilot is ok and that is the important thing. Silver lining is it is only a $2 million get dunked instead of $40 million again. The pilot life has no price. Something about the bombing operation can cause some mistakes. Of course most will say it is fatigue. They fly only in the summer. To do all your work in only a few month and you will be tired! Go 0 hours to 12 hours a day is a shock to a system if you aren't used to that. It is risk and some here say it might not be worth it.

Very clearly explained Jean-Pierre. There were times when after a 4 hour series of drops, that I was so bone-tired that I'd wished for a team of stretcher bearers to be at the foot of the ladder so they could carry me to the tanker base rest area and fall asleep.

Even the process of sitting on Red Alert waiting for the phone to ring with co-ordinates for the next dispatch has it's own way of tiring out crews.

[goldeneagle]

Goldeneagle.....they build houses everyday too. Lives is what matters.

You'll notice, I never said, or implied that it was worth lives, but, the attitude of 'its just trees' may hold true on some fires, absolutely doesn't on others.

The fire in question here at Puntzi lake

http://globalnews.ca/news/2105092/multi ... lake-fire/

“One resort, two permanent homes, one seasonal home and multiple outbuildings on a total of four properties have been confirmed lost as a result of the Puntzi Lake fire.

The fires up around Pemberton do kind of qualify for 'its just trees', but this one definitely does not.

Years ago when I was directly involved in fire suppression, I went to WAY to many funerals for folks that had a bad day at the fire. It doesn't seem to happen nearly as often these days, and I was glad to read 'pilot ok' when news started reporting this incident. But, it wasn't 'just trees', a lot more than trees were lost to this fire so far.

[Gravol]

Are these aircraft all being lost in the same phase of the sequence? Where do most accidents happen when it comes to water bombing?

[xsbank]

It should be fairly obvious, even for the most obtuse, that dying on the job is totally pointless. When I started bombing the butcher's bill was 1.3 deaths per year. The only reason it stopped was the insurance company said "enough!" The company's response was to bring in SOPs, checklists and the Trackers got stall margin indicators. All the cowboy flying was weeded out. DC6s, A26s, S2s, 210s, Aerostars...all crashed and killed my friends. Why? What was the point? Families bereft, kids with no fathers...It was a job, a good one, a good hot season paid well and I raised a family with it. But it was just a job. The guy who crashed last year was hounded out of the company and now works for an airline. See what I mean? He nearly died, but he didn't and has gone on to something arguable better and has his whole life ahead of him. Not like the poor fellow in Cold Lake this year.

With new procedures, we didn't lose anyone for a number of years until a bird dog flew up a box canyon... Anyway, all the structures and properties that were lost during my day have been rebuilt. All the trees that were damaged have had 20+ years of new growth.

All those deaths were pointless. Nobody died heroically, saving a drowning child or saving someone trapped in a burning building (We bombed a guard around a guy stuck in a truck so a helicopter could rescue him. Heroes, perhaps, but it was done safely and didn't die doing it. That would have just added more deaths. We Just carried on and reloaded).

So, they are just trees. Fire can be a trajedy for some, I'm sorry for the loss of property and things, but unless a life is lost, "they are just trees."

Stay safe out there, we want you all to come home tonight, even if it is to a crap hotel without bug screens!

[goldeneagle]

So, they are just trees!

This accident appears to be on a bog standard dispatch, to a run of the mill fire, and involved no heroics on the fire line, just an incident during a bog standard operation, scooping up water. Now you are telling me that's to dangerous, and it's not worth it for 'just trees'. So do tell, when is it worth dispatching the planes to fight a fire ? Why do we even have them if a bog standard dispatch involving no heroics is to dangerous ? Should they all just stay parked ?

You seem to want to make it sound like these folks risk life and limb every time they start engines. And here I was under the impression that after years of endless accidents, we had finally reached a point where the cowboys have been flushed out of the system. Today, we contract with professional folks who understand and manage the risks, with safety as a top priority. That's why we pay them the big bucks.

So what was it about this particular mission that made it 'not worth it?' Was there something specific about this particular dispatch that put on a highly elevated risk for the mission ? Or is it just that you think all fire attack missions carry to much risk to be worth running ? Should we just park the whole fleet and thereby ensure nobody operating an aircraft during fire suppression has an accident ? If not, where should the line be drawn ?

It's really easy to sit back after the fact and say 'not worth it' when an incident happens, but, was there anything in particular about this particular dispatch that would tell in advance, risks are higher than acceptable, and the plane shouldn't have been sent out, because 'its just trees' ? Or is this a conclusion you come to after the fact, when an incident has happened ?

[xsbank]

Golden, give your head a shake. I did it for 20 years and about 8 guys I was doing it with died. Could I have prevented it? Once. When I birddogged I read the riot act to one pilot who was making stupid maneuvers, all to "get 'er done." He just retired at 65. I kinda like to think I shook him enough to see the light.

I'm just trying to say it needs the same level of professionalism as any flying job, probably much more. Fatigue. Maintenance issues. Smoke. Weather. Bad food. Bad accommodations. Odd shifts. Pressure to "save" stuff. Company pressure. Forestry pressure. You haven't flown for a week and you just got a call. Traffic. Aircraft running on the ground with people all around. Cutting corners. Pressure for accuracy. Etc. Etc.

All at once.

I'm trying to say yes, there is urgency, yes there are values, yes you have to make the contractor happy. No you don't have to die going to work. Accidents happen. This last one was likely that. Just make sure you're not playing with a stacked deck.

If you don't get it by now...?

Jeez

[xsbank]

Actually, rereading your post, if there really has been 4 (I thought three) tankers down in the last short while, maybe there is too much risk on a "bog standard dispatch?"

When do you think it becomes too risky? 5 down? 8 down? I'd be curious to hear your answer. There is obviously something wrong with the operation, 3 and one death. SOPs and checklists won't solve it.
How many do we have to lose before it's too risky to use FireCows? What is the flaw? I'll bet the insurance company is gnashing it's teeth right now.

I liked bombing, I particularly liked the Firecat, but don't treat me like I know nothing just because I don't work with you now.

[Jean-Pierre]

It is not possible to weed out all cowboy. There is always new to replace. Nature of the job attracts certain type sometimes. Not saying that is the case here but previous accidents yes.

[Liquid Charlie]

For the most part the medavac community has seen the light and are a lot safer today than the bygone days when it was considered OK to break the rules to get it done. I think for the most part it's also creeping into the water bombing world as well but there are always exceptions -- the only glaring issue I see is that fatigue is an issue -- perhaps it's time to add more crews and fly less -- turbulence - heat poor vis and continuous water pickups says to me works assignments should be cut way back and rotate a fresh ass in the seat more often -- but i'm not directly involved so I have to ask (and it has been indicated here) is fatigue a factor and a contributor to a percentage of these accidents??

[xsbank]

Good question Charlie, I believe it's 8 hours of flight time per day but I can't see how that is any way equates to somebody scooping, especially single pilot. At least in the Ducks you can take turns but it's still way more intense than land-based tankers.

[godsrcrazy]

Correction North Shore...thats 4 in 13months.
Fly safe guys. Its just trees. They grow them everyday.

One has to question what is going on with these guys. The helicopter guys out there can do 20 plus drops per hour depending on distance from the water. I would think they are in a more high risk enviroment being low and slow in the trees.

[xsbank]

I think every machine has its challenges. I don't know if you can directly compare risk but that FireCow accident rate must parallel the old Tracker crash rate. The only thing different is all the Tracker crashes were fatal and guys seem to be surviving these more often. At what point will these things be grounded?

It's funny or ironic but I railed against single engine tankers years ago, opining that one engine was a huge step backwards, but it doesn't seem to be the engines that are at fault here...something else is killing these things. Would be interesting to be in the offices at Conair right now, they are not forthcoming with any information and they must have an inkling....

[Gravol]

bell 412 is down too. Pilot is safe, no major injuries.



Fly safe people

[iflyforpie]

Correction North Shore...thats 4 in 13months.
Fly safe guys. Its just trees. They grow them everyday.

One has to question what is going on with these guys. The helicopter guys out there can do 20 plus drops per hour depending on distance from the water. I would think they are in a more high risk enviroment being low and slow in the trees.

They are in a high risk environment... but I think that for the most part they figured out confined spaces, snags leading to dynamic rollover, and settling with power decades ago. There is still operating in the hashed marks of the H/V curve... but engine reliability has gone up so much that it isn't much of an issue.

The Fireboss has taken air tankers backwards in many ways. I don't think the single engine is a big deal for the same reasons it isn't a big deal in helicopters... but going from two crew to single crew, and using larger numbers of smaller aircraft for more frequent scoops and drops in tighter spaces will certainly add more risk.