nav Canada collection

[dstechnical]

Anyone getting phone calls from a ctl collections regarding nav Canada fees

[ahramin]

Nope. Haven't paid them in a decade. When they start providing the service, then I'll send them the cheque.

[parrot_head]

Nice. Sounds like someone was #2 when they think they should have been #1.

[Strega]

I have never paid them... its a slimeball collection agency.. I worry more about clingons by myanus..(or uranus)

[dstechnical]

they have been sending invoices but the aircraft has been out of service for 7 yrs, and is being parted out. They have a letter sent to them and the AAIR's reflect this. This bill has ballooned to $4000 from what we think is $200.00, but we don't think there is a bill. ( i guess we should not have ignored this , but when you think you have resolved the issue who has time to waste on mindless bureaucrats .) We were contacted by a company called CTI. Like most collections agencies they cant even follow the ont govt rules on their conduct and were rude and threatening. Just putting it out there as a heads up.

[ahramin]

NavCanada does not look at AAIR data, you have to send them their particular form until the aircraft is deregistered. And as you say, the bureaucrats may or may not process it correctly.

As for the collections agency, send them the form letter telling them not to call you anymore, then report them to the ON consumer protection agency.

[Braun]

Nope. Haven't paid them in a decade. When they start providing the service, then I'll send them the cheque.

What service exactly do we not provide?

[iflyforpie]

What service exactly do we not provide?

Lots of things.

For example. Used to be if I wanted a weather report, I could phone the FSS near the area I wanted to fly and get a seasoned veteran SPECIALIST to give me his or her interpretation of the weather for that specific region. Now I get some schmuck in the FIC who doesn't even know major geographic features... and is just reading the same Environment Canada generated graphical or alphanumerical data I can see much better on my computer or phone.

Another example. Flight plans. Great... in my convoluted and often changed route through the mountains we might get the search pattern down to a few hundred sq km an hour after my ETA.... because I don't know if my ELT will activate. With someone I know and trust watching my flight following, they know within minutes of when it stops transmitting and it pinpoints just about exactly where I am. AFF is fail safe while ELTs are fail deadly.

Finally, another one. I operate at an airport that has far more movements than the one down the road with an MF... with no parallel taxiway. We seem to be able to keep it together.

CFS and Pubs don't count... we pay extra for those.

[ahramin]

Nope. Haven't paid them in a decade. When they start providing the service, then I'll send them the cheque.

What service exactly do we not provide?

Look up the YVR class C airspace NOTAM.

[parrot_head]

Look up the YVR class C airspace NOTAM.

If you showed up for your airline flight and they only had one pilot, would you expect them to continue or cancel? With all the automation these days, I don't see why a single pilot cannot manage a flight in an A320 from CYVR to CYYC.

VFR aircraft, when in Class C, must provided with conflict resolution, traffic information, flight information, etc. An arrival or departure controller, if busy with IFR aircraft, should not be expected to manage the additional workload associated with VFR aircraft.

It all comes down to managing workload and putting the controller in a position to be able to provide the best service possible.

[B208]

Look up the YVR class C airspace NOTAM.

If you showed up for your airline flight and they only had one pilot, would you expect them to continue or cancel? With all the automation these days, I don't see why a single pilot cannot manage a flight in an A320 from CYVR to CYYC.

VFR aircraft, when in Class C, must provided with conflict resolution, traffic information, flight information, etc. An arrival or departure controller, if busy with IFR aircraft, should not be expected to manage the additional workload associated with VFR aircraft.

It all comes down to managing workload and putting the controller in a position to be able to provide the best service possible.

I don't think anyone is taking aim at the controllers on the floor here. The anger you see here is directed at NAVCANADA management for not having the manpower on hand to provide adequate service. Nobody here blames you personally; they blame whoever is lining their pockets with our fees. Given that the illustrious Mr Chrétien set up NAVCANADA my guess is that the pockets being lined are in la belle Provence.

[ahramin]

Look up the YVR class C airspace NOTAM.

If you showed up for your airline flight and they only had one pilot, would you expect them to continue or cancel?

I'm not understanding your point so lets continue with the analogy to help me understand. If you bought an airline ticket and at the gate they told you to go home because there was only one pilot would you:

1. Happily accept the situation?

2. Blame the pilot who called in sick on a sunny long weekend? Or

3. Blame the airline for failing to staff their airline properly?

Now tell me what you would do if the same airline had the same problem half the days of the year.

[ahramin]

And it's not like CZVR's pathetic managers are an anomaly for NavCanada

CZEG DUE TO REDUCED SYSTEM CAPACITY, ACFT PLANNING TO OPR THROUGH
EDMONTON FIR SHALL OPR AS FOLLOWS:
1. EASTBOUND FLT DEP PANC (TED STEVENS ANCHORAGE INTL AD)
DESTINED TO CANADA OR USA SHALL FLT PLAN ON OR SOUTH OF RTE
YAK-LVD-HOWSE-YWV
2. WESTBOUND FLT DEP USA OR CANADA DESTINED TO PANC (TED STEVENS
ANCHORAGE INTL AD) SHALL FLT PLAN ON OR SOUTH OF RTE
YWV-HOWSE-LVD-YAK
3. ACFT ARR AND DEP WITHIN CANADA (DOMESTIC TRAFFIC)
OPR AT FL 290 AND ABV NORTH OF 5700N MAY BE RESTRICTED TO
OPR AT FL 280 OR BLW.
4. POLAR FLT ARE EXEMPT.
5. FLT OPR BTN ASIA AND NORTH AMERICA (PAC) ARE TO OPR ON PUB NCA
TRACKS.
6. IFR ACFT PLANNING TO OPR EAST OF 8500W AND NORTH OF 6200N
WITHIN EDMONTON FIR SHALL COMPLY WITH THE FOLLOWING:
A: NON-JET FLT ARR AND DEP WITHIN CANADA (DOMESTIC TFC)
SHALL OPR FL220 OR BLW
B: JET FLT ARR AND DEP WITHIN CANADA (DOMESTIC TFC)
MAY BE RESTRICTED TO AT OPR FL280 OR BLW
C: FLT DEP CYFB TO GREENLAND, ICELAND OR EUROPE
SHALL RTE SOUTH OF EDMONTON FIR
1508091200 TIL 1508100200

[Braun]

Look up the YVR class C airspace NOTAM.

If you showed up for your airline flight and they only had one pilot, would you expect them to continue or cancel? With all the automation these days, I don't see why a single pilot cannot manage a flight in an A320 from CYVR to CYYC.

VFR aircraft, when in Class C, must provided with conflict resolution, traffic information, flight information, etc. An arrival or departure controller, if busy with IFR aircraft, should not be expected to manage the additional workload associated with VFR aircraft.

It all comes down to managing workload and putting the controller in a position to be able to provide the best service possible.

I don't think anyone is taking aim at the controllers on the floor here. The anger you see here is directed at NAVCANADA management for not having the manpower on hand to provide adequate service. Nobody here blames you personally; they blame whoever is lining their pockets with our fees. Given that the illustrious Mr Chrétien set up NAVCANADA my guess is that the pockets being lined are in la belle Provence.

Based on this alone I think it is clear this thread is going nowhere.

[AirFrame]

Based on this alone I think it is clear this thread is going nowhere.

That's convenient, it's a lot easier to just ignore the whole issue due to one person's inflammatory comment.

But if you overlook that one comment, B208 and ahramin raise a valid issue: Why isn't NavCanada staffing airspace to support demand?

In the YVR area, the alternatives we have are to fly below safe gliding altitude when crossing water, or fly a long way out of our way (and into someone else's airspace) to get a safe altitude. Neither are palatable, given that we're paying for the service that should be available.

[B208]

I don't think anyone is taking aim at the controllers on the floor here. The anger you see here is directed at NAVCANADA management for not having the manpower on hand to provide adequate service. Nobody here blames you personally; they blame whoever is lining their pockets with our fees. Given that the illustrious Mr Chrétien set up NAVCANADA my guess is that the pockets being lined are in la belle Provence.

Based on this alone I think it is clear this thread is going nowhere.

Look Skippy, in case you missed it, I mostly had your back with my comment. The problem is with upper management at NAVCANADA, not you.

The above assumes you are not upper management at NC and that you are not one of the ones whose pockets are getting lined. If those assumptions are in error, you are welcome to talk to my collegue . U Farely.

[Braun]

Based on this alone I think it is clear this thread is going nowhere.

That's convenient, it's a lot easier to just ignore the whole issue due to one person's inflammatory comment.

But if you overlook that one comment, B208 and ahramin raise a valid issue: Why isn't NavCanada staffing airspace to support demand?

In the YVR area, the alternatives we have are to fly below safe gliding altitude when crossing water, or fly a long way out of our way (and into someone else's airspace) to get a safe altitude. Neither are palatable, given that we're paying for the service that should be available.

I don't work in YVR so I cannot comment on why certain situations are managed the way they are. I don't have the facts or numbers to make any sound guesses so I will just avoid that because I simply do not know.

As for the staffing issues nav canada has been running the schools at maximum capacity but it takes times to train controllers and success rates are simply not so good right now. They have tried many different things to improve the training system in the last few years but it takes time to see the results. To say they aren't trying to do anyhing isn't really fair.

I don't think anyone is taking aim at the controllers on the floor here. The anger you see here is directed at NAVCANADA management for not having the manpower on hand to provide adequate service. Nobody here blames you personally; they blame whoever is lining their pockets with our fees. Given that the illustrious Mr Chrétien set up NAVCANADA my guess is that the pockets being lined are in la belle Provence.

Based on this alone I think it is clear this thread is going nowhere.

Look Skippy, in case you missed it, I mostly had your back with my comment. The problem is with upper management at NAVCANADA, not you.

The above assumes you are not upper management at NC and that you are not one of the ones whose pockets are getting lined. If those assumptions are in error, you are welcome to talk to my collegue . U Farely.

I get your problem with upper management. That's fine if you feel that way. I just don't understand why you would have to make that sort of statement about people in Quebec getting their pockets lined with your money when all the money goes back to the airlines whom by the way are the majority on the board of directors...

[B208]

...because that seemed to be the modus operandi for the Chrétien Liberals and the PET Liberals before them and the Mulroney Coservatives between them.

[ahramin]

B208, I think the privatization of the airports and traffic control were more about finding creative accounting methods for balancing the budget rather than stealing money. I believe in the private sector it's called maximizing shareholder value. Certainly the board of directors and middle and upper management at NavCanada aren't earning their paycheques, but I think that's more likely incompetence over corruption don't you think?

[Braun]

B208, I think the privatization of the airports and traffic control were more about finding creative accounting methods for balancing the budget rather than stealing money. I believe in the private sector it's called maximizing shareholder value. Certainly the board of directors and middle and upper management at NavCanada aren't earning their paycheques, but I think that's more likely incompetence over corruption don't you think?

I'll agree with you that I more often than not disagree with the upper management's vision for the future. Like I always say if service is not up to your liking or standards please complain to the proper channels and one day it will change. Because while I am sympathetic to your concerns there is not much that I can do as a simple lowly controller.

[ahramin]

there is not much that I can do as a simple lowly controller.

Trust me, the YVR shift supervisor gets a complaint call every time I get denied a service. His boss gets an email every time as well. However since it seems that my initial guess that you are in accounts receivable were incorrect and you are a controller, you could put the fact that you pay union dues and have a vote to use, and talk to your union bosses about helping any initiatives NavCanada might some day come up with for making sure that the highest demand specialties become more desirable for controllers. For example if they want to pay you guys more to staff the chronically short specialties, view that as a positive rather than a verboten idea. The controllers aren't directing NavCanada, but they do have a seat on the board and considerable prestige within the company. Apathy isn't the only choice. You can be a force for change, however small.

[Braun]

There was talk about more difficult specialities having higher compensation but the union wants nothing to do with it. Why would they care about staffing issues? As long as the members are getting the best work conditions there is no reason for the union to agree to a system like you describe. I would personally love it. Also, do not kid yourself, airlines run the board.

[Rockie]

What is it about pilots that they refuse payment for services because they don't think they are receiving the service be it medical or NavCanada? Are any of us really that dense that we think it's going to make a bit of difference and that they are influencing the system? More likely it's because some of us personify the stereotype of cheap pilots and hide behind a false principle.

[ahramin]

It's possible Rockie, It's possible. I do pay the medical fee even though TC's service in this area is pathetic as well (A few years ago TC threatened to cancel my medical, then later claimed I never had one to begin with).

But it does bring attention to an unacceptable situation and so far we're getting away with it. By the way have you tried to pay your NavCanada invoice? A few years ago I left 3 messages with the proper accounts receivable lady and still haven't heard back from her. Perhaps they think if they don't take the money they don't have to provide the service.

[CpnCrunch]

There was talk about more difficult specialities having higher compensation but the union wants nothing to do with it. Why would they care about staffing issues? As long as the members are getting the best work conditions there is no reason for the union to agree to a system like you describe. I would personally love it.

I'm struggling to see how being underpaid for doing difficult work is "getting the best work conditions" for your members. Anyway, if the union isn't representing your interests it's up to you to put pressure on them to do so.

Also, do not kid yourself, airlines run the board.

Flow control into YVR appears to affect them as well.