Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

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Dh8Classic
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Dh8Classic »

altiplano wrote: Ideal candidate for ME employment today: Desperate to fly a jet, blinders, minimal self respect... Good luck...
Maybe it is more like....sick and tired of being stuck flying in crap areas of Canada, frustrated that the majors insist that you likely have to start off at another company(their regional) prior to hiring you, plenty of self respect(but none for people like you), would like to experience flying around the world and flying amazing airliners.

The Middle east has always turned me off because you have to live there and can't get home much so I never applied. But for a young guy looking for adventure, it is a heck of an opportunity for 5 years.
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Flyboycanada80
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Flyboycanada80 »

ikarus wrote:So new EK bond is 5 yrs ($45,000USD), correct?

Say you just can't handle it anymore, and leave in your 3rd year? How do they get the rest of the money? They can cut your last pay check...but what if that isn't enough to recover the bond? Just curious what happens?
Well you also get an "end of year service benefit" so like a bonus equal to one month or 3 weeks pay for every year your stay. So they can use that as well possibly. So you have to think, after 3 years your bond is 18k US. Using that bonus should cover it. Or just pay. If you haven't saved 18k by then you should sell your 100ft yacht.....

Also I have been looking at flydubai in which the bond is a much more reasonable 36k and 3 years...
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fish4life
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by fish4life »

Who says you can't just take your usual flight home to visit and just never come back skipping out on your bond etc that way?
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Eric Janson
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Eric Janson »

Dh8Classic wrote:The Middle east has always turned me off because you have to live there and can't get home much so I never applied. But for a young guy looking for adventure, it is a heck of an opportunity for 5 years.
And then what?

You'll discover that there is nowhere to go and finally understand what "Golden Handcuffs" means.
Flyboycanada80 wrote:As an example for FlyDubai as a first officer your EQUIVALENT Canadian GROSS income would be 270K. Food for thought.
That's a meaningless comparison imho.

What's needed is a breakdown of this figure and more importantly the net amount. The UAE is a very expensive place to live.
fish4life wrote:Who says you can't just take your usual flight home to visit and just never come back skipping out on your bond etc that way?
That's great - until you join an Airline that flies to the Middle East. Good luck trying to explain that to your boss!
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Dh8Classic
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Dh8Classic »

Eric Janson wrote:
Dh8Classic wrote:The Middle east has always turned me off because you have to live there and can't get home much so I never applied. But for a young guy looking for adventure, it is a heck of an opportunity for 5 years.
And then what?

You'll discover that there is nowhere to go and finally understand what "Golden Handcuffs" means.
Talk about a lack of knowledge.

A guy flying an ATR goes to Emirates and gets a couple of thousand hours flying a 777 or an Airbus and he will have nowhere to go. This despite the fact that airlines around the world are short pilots. There are a lot of pilots now leaving the Middle East. Are they going nowhere? Maybe just to the unemployment line? Not likely.

Broad statements based on nothing are not helpful.
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hithere
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by hithere »

What he means is that unless you intend to finish your career with a carrier in the Middle East, you will end up coming back to Canada with lots of heavy jet experience but still find yourself having to go to the bottom of a seniority list. Either that or resign yourself to being a contract pilot with carriers with no established seniority system and the attendant frequent moves and company instability etc. if you have a family, then it's going to be an even more turbulent career.
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

Some good advice from UK, CI, and Eric. I became and expat 15 years ago. It was not a goal of mine to go overseas, I just took the best job available at the time. It has worked out very well for me, mainly because at the time I came, expat jobs paid significantly more than the equivalent jobs in Canada. Excepting DEC jobs, mostly in China, that is no longer the case. If I were in the same position now, becoming an expat would be the backup plan if the majors in Canada didn't pan out.
Eric Janson wrote:
It also requires a special mindset to be able to deal with the issues - there will be plenty no matter who you work for!

You're not in the Western World - there can be significant cultural differences. Their thinking and their way of doing things may make no sense to you. You will have to adapt - not the other way round.
No truer statement could be made. Your personality type and your attitude will be THE most important factor determining your level of enjoyment and success overseas. Read all the information available from various sources, all the issues that arise, all the advice given and then look at yourself in the mirror and decide if you can handle the issues and adapt to the cultural and behavioural norms of your new country while still keeping a smile on your face.

As others have mentioned, it is pretty much a one way street. After a few years away, once you've been flying a 777 or A330, making decent (though no longer great) money, you're likely not going to be willing to go to the bottom of an airline seniority list in Canada and sit reserve for $45k/year. That's even if you can get hired by a major in Canada anymore. With the big 2 taking most from their regionals now it's become extremely hard to go back even if you were willing. Once an expat, pretty much always an expat. You may move to another job in another country but you're not likely to go home.

To the guy asking about FlyDubai vs. a Canadian regional, it really depends on what you want. Do you want it to be a stepping stone for AC/WJ or do you want to to be an expat for life? If you're happy being an expat for life, go for it. After 5 years you'l be a 737 captain and have numerous contract opportunities if you want to move. However, if you want it to be a stepping stone then you need to consider what happens if you don't get the AC/WJ job. See the previous paragraph, it would be hard enough giving up your 737 captain job making over $200k Canadian tax free to go work for AC or WJ, let alone any of the other operators in Canada. So you delay, hoping something else will come up, and the longer you delay, the harder it gets to go home. Then you're "stuck" as an expat. That's not necessarily a bad thing, depends on you. I'm quite happy with my life. That being said, the older I get and the older my kids get the more I think about possibly coming back to Canada at some point. 5 years ago I wouldn't have even considered going home. I'm still not ready to, but it gets a lot more consideration now.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Eric Janson »

Dh8Classic wrote:Broad statements based on nothing are not helpful.
I should have explained what I was trying to say a bit more clearly.

hithere and Joe Blow Schmo have given a fantastic explanation (better than I would have been able to).

Thanks guys!

One other thing I forgot to mention.

For those of you who do decide to go.

Do not under any circumstances buy property in the Middle East.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by North Shore »

Eric Janson wrote: Do not under any circumstances buy property in the Middle East.
Why's that? Does it automatically make you a resident, or, being a non-citizen of those countries, do you have no property rights there?
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Mig29 »

I believe he's trying to say that the market is going to tank in the future...
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

Mig29 wrote:I believe he's trying to say that the market is going to tank in the future...
No, what he is trying to say is that if the market does tank, you go to jail if you can't pay your debts and you don't get out until they're paid. How you're supposed to raise the money from jail is not something they concern themselves with.

That just applies to the middle east. By all means buy property in other parts of Asia if that's where you're living.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by complexintentions »

While I always try and remain respectful of my fellow aviator's opinions, particularly other expats, there sure are a lot of strongly held views on ME employment by folks who apparently have never a. lived in the Middle East or b. worked for a ME airline. :mrgreen:

"Once an expat, always an expat".

Good grief. Not even remotely true. Many of my colleagues both EK and otherwise have returned to Canada and are flying there now. Yes, it can be difficult to go back to Canadian wages and taxes. One former CX pilot was grilled hard by Encore on why she wanted to work there. (But got the job). Another bounced around a few other expat carriers after EK before landing at NavCanada. Others took niche jobs where pay didn't have to be the primary consideration, because of their earnings and investments while abroad. Some left the industry to do other things they enjoyed, again because they had the luxury of doing so. Some just plain retired early (my plan!) because they had saved and invested diligently.

The reasons many don't return to Canada isn't because they can't - they discover they don't want to! THAT is the real "risk" of becoming an expat, it will change your worldview, maybe for the better, maybe not, but it will become harder to put up with the typical mindset of your home country once you have been away from it for long enough. People meet people, move to different places. Buy properties and businesses in other countries. Friend of mine is retiring this year with his Vietnamese wife to Vietnam, she owns a business there. Another bought a resort in Sri Lanka and is running that. I'm not trying to paint things as easy, or overly glamorous. Just that there are a lot of options if you are willing to broaden your horizons. It is getting harder all the time, that has to be acknowledged. EK is a disaster these days, to be honest, and the worst part is they don't even seem to realize it. But declining conditions are a world-wide phenomena, not just in expat jobs.

Yes, you have to be smart about it, and have a plan. You won't make or save as much as you think, but you CAN absolutely make far more than in Canada - IF you can deal with the totally different lifestyle and the huge sacrifices it takes. Of course, if you live beyond your means in Canada, you will do the same outside the borders, and nothing can help you. There is no cure for stupid.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by complexintentions »

As far as owning properties in Dubai, I have many colleagues who have both made and lost fortunes in real estate. Blanket statements against one thing or another are stupid.

My own opinion is that I would never touch properties in the UAE with a ten foot pole, but that's because I prefer liquidity and the freedom of having all of my assets outside of the borders. But there are hundreds of pilots using the housing allowance to pay their mortgages, and it seems to work for them. Time will tell when they go to sell, I suppose.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

^ ^ ^ What he said ^ ^ ^
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by ahramin »

As always complex, well stated.

If your goal is to be an airline pilot in Canada, working overseas is probably not a good route. If you want to do any other kind of flying, working overseas may be the best route. Each person has different goals and they are rarely constant throughout your life.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Eric Janson »

North Shore wrote:Why's that? Does it automatically make you a resident, or, being a non-citizen of those countries, do you have no property rights there?
Your "rights" in the UAE as Expat are minimal to none. Plenty of stories online.

Here's an analysis of the UAE property market complete with the history.

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Midd ... ce-History

My opinion :wink:

This is speculating at best - not an investment.

If you don't understand the difference between investing and speculating then substitute the word gambling for speculating.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Mig29 »

Joe Blow Schmo wrote:
Mig29 wrote:I believe he's trying to say that the market is going to tank in the future...
No, what he is trying to say is that if the market does tank, you go to jail if you can't pay your debts and you don't get out until they're paid. How you're supposed to raise the money from jail is not something they concern themselves with.

That just applies to the middle east. By all means buy property in other parts of Asia if that's where you're living.

Really, I never heard of this before. If this is really true, then when it comes to buying property there, I would stay away as far as possible.
Mind you though, if you lose a job due to "financial" crisis at Emirates, then I'm pretty sure the rest of the state (UAE) would be hurting pretty bad.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Loads »

Its going to be an interesting year in the ME. I have never heard this much military traffic in the area since 03-09, we counted 5 different "Python" call signs (tankers) going up the gulf on my last trip. UAE airspace was closed earlier this month for a security threat (NOTHING in any media). The UAE just introduced a 22% raise in petrol prices and further increases will be under review monthly, as well they announced a sales tax will be starting in 18 months. Finally only 6 corporate jets in DXB and 7 in DWC.... Usually there are easily 25-30 at any one time.

Maybe nothing but if anyone is serious about coming out, ask a lot of questions first!

Complex Intentions has the best objective advice.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by GRK2 »

VAT...careful, so far it's only on paper. The plan (as we've read so far) is to implement a VAT for "luxury items" only. (tobacco, booze and high end cars.) In addition, there will be a minimum of a two year grace period to allow vendors to introduce the system. No need to panic just yet...if you don't smoke, drive a Ferrari, or drink much, then it's minimal. The gas thing is kinda disturbing though...we now drive less, and plan our outings a little better because of that increase.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

Post by Flyboycanada80 »

Other than taking a pay cut etc. how hard is it to come back and find a job. Do employers value the experience?
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