CPL flight test experience requirements

[davecessna]

Hi folks!

I have a quick question regarding the CPL flight test. The only description of experience requirement to take the test I've found is:

"evidence of having completed no less than 75% total flying experience required for the CPL licence;"

Does that simply mean having 150 hours total, or does it mean 75% of each of the broken-down components as well: PIC, Instrument, CPL dual, etc.? Reason I'm asking is that I only have about 11 hours of hood time and I am wondering if I actually need 15 to do the flight test.

Thanks in advance and sorry if this has been asked before.

[Shiny Side Up]

Why the rush to do your flight test? My personal advice is to be almost all done your hours before bothering with it. Out of principle, i won't work with students on the flight test until they have almost all the hour requirements done save maybe 5 dual hours (being conservative) to specifically shine up the air exercises. First, the extra practice time before you test certainly won't hurt your performance. Second, i've grown tired of idjits who after they get the test done slack off, then are bothering me a year later trying madly to get the rest of the time done so they don't have to do it all again.

[davecessna]

Honestly, my reasoning was the longer I wait to do it, the more review flights I'm going to need to do to get the procedural stuff up to scruff. I passed the written in October 2014, so I don't want to dick around too long and let that expire. I think I have all the dual requirement anyways, any additional hours I would use for test preparation, as you mentioned.

[Shiny Side Up]

I really wish people would work to their CPLs with more of a plan in mind. If you're wondering if you have enough time to do your test, i'm guessing you have about 50 hours left to fly to complete your CPL to the 200 hour requirement?

That means, just guessing again by what you've said, that after your PPL you've already knocked off the 35 hours of dual?

[davecessna]

Yep, correct on both.

My question was simply to clarify the requirements with regards to the flight test.

[photofly]

To answer the question: 150 hours total, that's it.

[davecessna]

Thanks to both of you. P.s. SSU I'm having way too much fun to rush anything.

[Shiny Side Up]

Well just remember, soon as you have a flight test done, you have a deadline to meet. Lots of PPLs I know have a tough time squeezing in 50 hours in a year.

edit: actually, remember that you already have one.

[Cessna driver]

To answer the question: 150 hours total, that's it.

Provided you have the written exam done first...

[davecessna]

No I got that, I was only speaking of the required flight experience.

The instructor I asked at my school said I also needed 75% of the CPL instrument hours to take the flight test, so 15, but I see nothing about that in the CARS or anywhere on TC's website

[photofly]

To answer the question: 150 hours total, that's it.

Provided you have the written exam done first...

To answer the question, which was, what are the experience requirements to qualify for the CPL flight test, the answer is 150 hours of flight time.

The full list of admission criteria is here:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... on-387.htm

[praveen4143]

Agree with SSU.. If those 50 additional hours would make you even a better pilot by 0.01%, then that might just be worth it before you try to pass a CPL test. So why bother doing the CPL test at 150 when you can do so as a better pilot at 200?

[photofly]

Because your ability as a pilot isn't frozen at the level you reach when you take the test. Getting the test (that's full of artificial exercises) out of the way as soon as you're competent to do so gives you the maximum time left to work on improving your real flying.

What would you rather do? 50 more hours of steep turns, stalls and precautionary approaches? Or 50 hours of aeros, cross country flying in weather, at night, some floats, or whatever else you can get the opportunity to do?

Same for the PPL test, come to that.

[Shiny Side Up]

What would you rather do? 50 more hours of steep turns, stalls and precautionary approaches? Or 50 hours of aeros, cross country flying in weather, at night, some floats, or whatever else you can get the opportunity to do?

who says you can't do the latter before a cpl test? Personally, while I agree about your assessment of the test, one feels that the spirit of the time building portion of the cpl license is the "take the time to learn, improve then come back and show us how good you are". Instead of "scrape through it as soon as you feel you are just good enough". Yes I get what the realities of the training are, we got pilots just after a piece of paper. I know a few of those now, its unfortunate. The CPL in a perfect world would be a journeyman's flying training in the oldest sense of the word, in fact that's what i would recommend to anyone doing it, if you can learn a lot of different things, then the test will be abreeze rather than focus just on the test aspect. Want to be good at the soft and short field exercises? Go get a float rating or find a ski plane to fly. Want a good exercise in systems knowledge? Get a multi rating in there. You have troubles with steep turns, spins and stalls? Get some acro time.

You're right, your skills aren't frozen at the test, I just feel that the results of 200 hours of flight training and time built should be better than 150 hours if the time is used productively, and blowing away the test is a goal worth shooting for, or at least instilling in students. Maybe not. Again, I'm just wishing how training would be.

[photofly]

The CPL in a perfect world would be a journeyman's flying training in the oldest sense of the word,

If you don't build the test up in a candidate's mind as the be-all and end-all of getting a CPL, you can make it exactly that. Begin by treating the flight test as just one small step on the way to a CPL, and moreover a step you get out of the way as soon as you're adequately competent with all the (artificial) exercises.

blowing away the test is a goal worth shooting for, or at least instilling in students.

I don't think it's worth spending an extra fifty hours stuck in the CPL flight test syllabus once a competent test pass standard is reached. I don't think anyone knows or cares whether . Yeager, Bob Hoover, Skip Stewart, Sully or anyone else one might look up to got on their CPL flight test. If self-praise is the goal, then you can explain that a decent pass at 150 hours is worth twice the self-adulation of a string of '4's at 200, 250 or 300 hours.

It's all too easy for an FTU and FTU-centric instructors to instil the "flight test is the pinnacle of skill" idea, because the flight test results are a nice exact number and because the instructors themselves are skilled at the exercises involved. I think it's an error though. I think a student should take the test as soon as the instructor is confident they'll pass. Once the mental block of passing a flight test is out of they way they can start to learn to fly.

[Shiny Side Up]

You think about the process differently than I do then Photofly, and i see where you're coming from. I just think we've gotten to a "good enough" attitude when it comes to the test, and while ideally students should be, as you say, continuing and improving past that, i feel that in most cases they aren't. The test gets "passed" then its a process of burning time. There's a lot who probably should have spent a lot more time perfecting some of the exercises, since they can't do anywhere near what would be considered flight test pass performance after.

I've almost given up doing instructor ratings since the last dozen guys i've had with fresh cpls can't do basic stuff. You might say that no one needs fifty hours of steep turns, but it might help when some of these fellows can't do one without it turning into a spiral. While I agree that the flight test has turned into its own monster - another topic - some of it is just basic flying skills that pilots should have. I feel what has been determined adequate in this regard anymore, just ain't good enough to be upholding the duty one has by holding that piece of paper.

That's my opinion on the matter.

[photofly]

Well, yes. I suppose I'm talking about the motivated and skilled candidate. Passing the CPL flight test at 150 hours is a golden opportunity to do something special with the next 50 hours. Not to loaf. Similarly passing the PPL test at 35 hours. I'm actually quite happy with a "good enough for today" attitude towards flight tests - particularly some aspects of the flight test standards, but not so much with a "good enough for ever" attitude towards flying skill.

[5x5]

Seems to me that if you're actually ready at 150 hours, then go ahead and do something "special" (whatever that may mean) for the next 50 and at 200 hours you'll still be ready and have whatever extra "special" experience you acquire and perform better. While the actual mark you get has very little, if any, direct impact on future employment it does have a personal impact. Typically, the better you do on tests the better you feel and that helps boost confidence and contributes to a more positive outlook overall. And attitude will definitely impact future employment.

Basically I believe a person should always put in the best effort possible and if you have 200 hours to do the test, take full advantage of the time to get better. If somehow the extra 50 hours will make you worse, then the value of "special" experience has to be questioned.

And maybe I'm old-fashioned, but the concept of picking and choosing what's important based on your personal feelings is one of the problems in today's workforce. It shouldn't be encouraged in the education that is to be the basis for your career. And I'm not talking about simply accepting every expectation that is imposed externally in the work world, but developing an understanding that just because you don't personally like something doesn't mean it has no value. Other people - owners, managers, co-workers, government, etc. - may well feel it is important and your attitude will be in conflict. If it truly offends you work at changing it, don't simply decide it doesn't matter and ignore it or mail-in the effort.

[photofly]

Seems to me that if you're actually ready at 150 hours, then go ahead and do something "special" (whatever that may mean) for the next 50 and at 200 hours you'll still be ready and have whatever extra "special" experience you acquire and perform better.

Impossible, mentally, to move on past the looming flight test hurdle until you've passed the test. Those extra 50 hours are always going to be overshadowed by the flight test until it's done. Which is a pity. Improving ones flying simply isn't best done by framing everything in terms of which of exercises 1-24 it's connected to.

And maybe I'm old-fashioned, but the concept of picking and choosing what's important based on your personal feelings

Straw man - not what I said. Not biting. Sorry!

[Shiny Side Up]

Improving ones flying simply isn't best done by framing everything in terms of which of exercises 1-24 it's connected to.

Of course not. But that's not what I'm after, one should be striving to be the best at what you do without needing such framework, but you know and I know that's simply just not the case. In my experience I keep seeing more people getting through the test, and then just wasting time though. In fact one of the most common requests we have at the school are students who've passed the test, but have had a year lapse and now are in a mad rush to finish hours. Unfortunately since most have done such little flying past the test, you really don't want to just rent them a plane. This says to me that most people aren't eager to be out there experiencing all flying has to offer them and it was only a test that held them back. I'd be more inclined to postulate the opposite, that as long as that test looms over them, they are not inclined to procrastinate on other flying, they have more, if misplaced, sense of priority. Personally I wish that you could only do a test after you got to 200 hours and had requirements filled. Working towards tests early I also feel is just poor planning by some instructors who upon getting the request from a student, see only in terms of dual time to do as opposed to also guiding the student's solo time, which i feel is as important to the learning process. Feel free to disagree with me.

In the end I feel CPL training needs a massive and sweeping change to how its conducted and some of its requirements to meet today's needs.

[photofly]

I think we're talking about different classes of candidates, and what's best for one for sure isn't best for the other. But for some candidates I think there are good valid reasons to get the flight test put to bed as soon as possible.

If as a candidate you're not mature or capable enough to use time after passing a test to your advantage - if you need a flight test to motivate you to fly - then I guess that's what you have to do.

[Shiny Side Up]

Exactly, I guess i think we're just seeing more people in the latter category than the former. I think it stems from a different mentality they have about the learning process, since there's that weird student/customer thing that goes on. I shock people occasionally who are working on a CPL and tell them that their mediocre performance on a day would be fire-worthy if they were actual working CPLs. That oftend doesn't sit well with them, but then you always have to wonder what people feel being a working pilot is about. Hell, if i couldn't keep the ship at +/- 500' like i see some fresh CPLs do, I'd be let go.

[5x5]

Photofly, I'm not trying to argue or get anyone to "bite", but I certainly feel what you said about effort

I'm actually quite happy with a "good enough for today" attitude

reflects a determination that the flight test, an integral part of training, isn't important, thus pretty much the same as

the concept of picking and choosing what's important based on your personal feelings

And I'm also not sure why you feel it's impossible (not just hard and they have to work for it, but impossible) for a student to move on past the looming flight test hurdle. A good instructor should be able to assist the student in growing and developing skills in excess of the basic requirements, or in addition to them, regardless whether they have passed a flight test or not.

[AuxBatOn]

5x5,

That's psychology... If the flight test is not done, the student will keep thinking about it and preparing for its (mostly useless) exercises.

In the end, in comes down to how much are you benefit from the 50 hours before the flight test or after. I think that if you have the skills to pass the test and you are self-motivated, doing the test early will pay dividends.

[praveen4143]

@Photofly, I still cannot fully wrap my head around the concept of using the "remaining 50 hours to get other things done"... If those other ratings and training will improve who you are as a pilot, wouldn't you be a better pilot at 200 hours and ergo perform better even on a bad day? Thus making your success at the test a more assured thing?

I've taught a couple of guys who came to me with their Group 1 IFR and then went for the CPL and their knowledge in systems helped them with certain things, and more importantly, their cockpit and resource management were better with being used to fly faster machines. I would definitely say all that extra training that they had getting them closer to the 200 hours helped in small ways to make it a better ride for both of them. Also, when they were done their test, they were ready to walk in to an AP and get their licenses signed off.