777 captain for $175K

[altiplano]

I'm not saying this is an RJ roster, but I seriously doubt you'll be going over to do 2 trips with fully augmented crew and cush layovers in great locations for your 20 days 'on'...

I couldn't agree more... Read the damn fine print.

I get it... They get away with lower rates to a point in some contracts, but that low? For a 777 skipper! When $300k contracts for 320 captains are plentiful... C'mon! Why would you even consider it!

And I'm not crowing about Canadian wages just responding to your comment that 'only the most senior Canadian jobs'... Point is you can earn and commute to/from wherever you want to realise a tax advantage, pilots at airlines around the world do it...

These airlines are selling and charging for a global commodity - lift - don't let them take advantage of perceptions on tax, that's between you and the government.

[Loads]

altiplano,

You could also look at the higher paying 777 CA contracts for some balance.. Maybe commuting back to Canada is not what some people would do, I dont know of many Canadians flying in Canada who qualify for this contract and those that are qualified are probably happy with their current jobs.

I'm assuming your current employer is offering this contract to current 777 Captains since it seems to have offended you.

If you are a Canadian 777 Captain you must be senior AC and doing ok for yourself and I'm not sure why you would want to make light of this. If you want to bring up wage issues, why not start at home?

If you are an AC guy, why not fight for new hires? That wage is sub housing allowance overseas. How about Encore 400 crew? While some WJ 737 Captains brag to the media about their $300K+ annual wage for only 16 days a month work, maybe they (or you) could bargain for their brothers and sisters at Encore.

Canada is not exactly the place to stand on your soapbox and preach about wages or working conditions. I'm not sure if there are any ICAO countries that have a 1200hr year except Canada.

I'm at Emirates and while its not the job it used to be, I would not leave for that contract unless its part time. 14 years here is worth 30 in Canada. I can come home or anywhere and retire comfortably at 50, not likely if I stayed in Canada.

Don't take the contract if it doesn't suit you. If your a qualified 777 Captain, you have a marketable skill set that is worth more than this contract.

Again, complexintentions has the best input on this forum about expat life and flying.

[altiplano]

Where does it stop then? $150? 125?

[Squid]

I would take good ol Canada any day compared to the Dubai heat and gong show or hanging out on china or waiting to grab my commute flight back. No thanks. I'll take getting taxed by our lovely NDP government. Life's to short to miss most of it there imo. Right Mike!

[Loads]

No argument there Squid! If anything most guys and girls who left home have a greater appreciation for what a great country Canada is. I surely appreciate the simple things at home and I'm looking forward to enjoying them full time next year. I have no regrets coming out to Dubai as I'm sure the guys at most Gulf airlines don't either. It has its challenges for sure but the benefits far outweigh them.

Which comes to the original point. Look at the fine print, if the contract is for $175K CAD gross, then its not worth leaving home for. Its not worth even considering, period.
If its $175K USD net, then it might be an option to consider maybe for your last few years.. Make some room in the Canadian industry!

Contract wages are based on what the market will bear. The next few years should be pretty good for the 777 contract wise. The fact that agencies are advertising in Canada is a sign that airlines are short of pilots overseas because its a hard place to get people to leave.

[ikarus]

Loads,

You got a PM from me.

Cheers

[complexintentions]

I would take good ol Canada any day compared to the Dubai heat and gong show or hanging out on china or waiting to grab my commute flight back. No thanks. I'll take getting taxed by our lovely NDP government. Life's to short to miss most of it there imo. Right Mike!

Here's the thing. No one's asking you to leave "good ol' Canada", and at the risk of sounding rude, I'm pretty sure no one would care if you stayed OR left. It's just that when people give unsolicited opinions, bashing jobs that they know nothing about beyond hearsay, it makes them sound defensive and self-justifying. (I'm actually trying to be kind, in truth it makes people sound like hillbillies who've never travelled further than Wabush).

I only offer advice about expat jobs because a) people ask and b) I actually have a bit of experience in the area. I am no expert but at least I've, y'know, done it. I don't go on threads about say, Air Canada interviews and make statements about how I'd "never leave my tax-free haven and join that union cluster-eff AC in the frozen wasteland of Canada". See how dumb that sounds in reverse? That's what expats hear when people make uninformed comments about expat work.

I simply consider all opportunities presented to me and quite frankly, overseas work has opened far, far more of those than anything I ever had in Canada. YMMV. I'm not claiming it would work for everyone.

As I said if you don't like the job's pay, don't apply. People not applying for jobs is far more effective in raising wages than ranting on an internet forum. Supply and demand, blah blah blah. Ironically, I doubt the people outraged by this job even have the credentials to apply for it. Kind of funny.

Dog help Canada if the NDP get in federally. Be careful what you wish for. The country is already teetering on the edge of recession, why not push it over the edge, I guess?

I thought loads post was excellent, his point that the Canadian industry is not really one to be moaning about the wages in other ones was dead on.

[altiplano]

Look man.

I'm not bashing expats and I'm not a never been out of my backyard hillbilly - I get it there are alot of great expat gigs.

I'm not trying to compare them to Canadian jobs in particular.

I'm looking at the worldwide market and fact is I don't think 175K is enough. Period. If you have a hard time with that I'm sorry. It isn't a bash at anyone. I think you even agreed with me earlier in this thread.

I am inclined to agree that the pay is low for a B777 captain.

So stop making this an expat vs. Canada thing. Bottim line if you're a type rated, experienced captain you can do much better. Make these SOBs pay for the experience they need.

I may want to take a leave and go overseas in a couple years and I don't want the bar dragged down... Make them pay what you're worth.

[complexintentions]

Fair enough. Well, rest assured that the job you mentioned is not really representative of the opportunities in general. They may get a few tire-kickers but there are far better opportunities out there.

[ogopogo]

I am not an airline pilot, but I have a question. I gather all the arguments above are being based on formula pay - ie the heavier the aircraft, the higher the pay. (which has always seemed strange to me given the skills in flying a B73X aren't a whole lot different than a B77X)

But aren't there airlines out there who pay strictly based on years of service, regardless of aircraft type? I seem to recall reading that BA has this?

So how does one square this with "what you're worth"?

[Joe Blow Schmo]

I am not an airline pilot, but I have a question. I gather all the arguments above are being based on formula pay - ie the heavier the aircraft, the higher the pay. (which has always seemed strange to me given the skills in flying a B73X aren't a whole lot different than a B77X)

But aren't there airlines out there who pay strictly based on years of service, regardless of aircraft type? I seem to recall reading that BA has this?

So how does one square this with "what you're worth"?

Firstly, formula pay has nothing to do with the skills require to fly the aeroplane, it has to do with the revenue generated by the aeroplane. A pilot flying 300 people (or 450 in AC's sardine class) in a 777 generates more revenue than a pilot flying 150 in a 737.

Plenty of airlines have a status pay system. Probably most of them outside of North America. Some of them have the same status pay across all types, others perhaps have two scales: One for narrow body, short haul and one for wide body, long haul. No matter which system you use however, CAD175K for a wide body captain would not be found in any of the respectable airlines. Even as narrow body pay it's quite low.

[altiplano]

Who's operating a 77W with only 300 seats?

I think AC reconfigured or are in the process of reconfiguring those HD triples to 3 class, maybe 395 seats+/-?

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Who's operating a 77W with only 300 seats?

I think AC reconfigured or are in the process of reconfiguring those HD triples to 3 class, maybe 395 seats+/-?

SQ: 2 versions, 264 seats and 278 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Singap ... V1_new.php
and
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Singap ... -300ER.php

CX: 2 versions, 275 seats and 340 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Cathay ... 00ER_A.php
and
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Cathay ... 00ER_C.php

Air China: 311 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Ch ... -300ER.php

AA: 310 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Americ ... 300_ER.php

ANA: 4 versions: 250 seats, 212 seats, 247 seats, and 264 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/ANA/AN ... 00ER_E.php
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/ANA/AN ... 00ER_D.php
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/ANA/AN ... 77-300.php
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/ANA/AN ... 00ER_F.php

BA: 299 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Britis ... 7_300.phpv

China Eastern: 316 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/China_ ... _300ER.php

China Southern: 309 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/China_ ... -300ER.php

JAL: 244 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Japan_ ... 00ER_B.php

and many more

[Joe Blow Schmo]

On the other end of the spectrum, the "highest density" configurations:

AC: 458 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Ca ... 7W_new.php

Air France (Caribbean configuration): 468 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Fr ... -300_E.php

EK: 427 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Emirat ... 2class.php

EY: 412 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Etihad ... -300ER.php

Aeroflot: 402 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Aerofl ... -300ER.php

KLM: 408 and 425 seats
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/KLM/KL ... 00ER_A.php
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/KLM/KL ... -300ER.php

[altiplano]

All those aircraft have Cabin/First/Business classes extending extending aft the wings.

Guess we can see where the money is... Asia...

Anyway tough comparison against a largely economy configured aircraft competing with similar configurations on select routes...

[Joe Blow Schmo]

All those aircraft have Cabin/First/Business classes extending extending aft the wings.

Guess we can see where the money is... Asia...

Anyway tough comparison against a largely economy configured aircraft competing with similar configurations on select routes...

AC's 458 pax version is 3-class and is flown to Asia where it competes with all of the above. The main difference is they jam 10 across in economy vs the normal 9 (and they don't have as many J class seats)

[altiplano]

YVR HKG? I think that's all it does in Asia. YYZ Asia flights are all on the older layout aircraft...

Interesting article on where airlines and manufacturers are going on this...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 1949066648

"On a 777, ten-abreast is the way to go," said Emirates President Tim Clark. "You'd be nuts to do it any other way."

[crazyaviator]

Pilots: Type A, egocentric, proud, back-stabbing, entitlement junkies who always feel they are worth more than they aught to be paid!
Many pilots get their nickers in a knot when foreign pilots come over to Canada to take their job but those same pilots wouldn't think twice about going over to a 3rd world ( or close to) country and DEMANDING a wage that is 500 times MORE than the average laborer in that country and perhaps 5-10 times more than what ANY indigenous pilot would beg to have!
A lead AME who signs off the B777 aught to be paid at least HALF the pay of the captain of the same plane, don"t you think?
If the salary of a B737 captain rose to $400.000.00 4 years from now and was STILL the lowest paid 737 captain in the 1st world countries,,, most pilots would still complain! PATHETIC !!!
As an accomplished AME and Comm pilot, i still prefer cracking open a beer with a dirty, foul mouthed AME than a back-stabbing, position jockeying, judgmental pilot !
I have found roughly 3 times as many assholes in my time with pilots as I have with AME's. Any other ideas why ?

[Joe Blow Schmo]

YVR HKG? I think that's all it does in Asia. YYZ Asia flights are all on the older layout aircraft...

Interesting article on where airlines and manufacturers are going on this...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 1949066648

"On a 777, ten-abreast is the way to go," said Emirates President Tim Clark. "You'd be nuts to do it any other way."

That doesn't surprise me from EK. They seem to have a different target market than most of the Asian flag carriers, at least in economy. They're targeting the price conscious customer, the one that will buy the cheapest ticket no matter the inconvenience. Those are the people willing to do a change in Dubai in order to save a few bucks. In that case they need to jam as many people as they can on the plane in order to generate revenue. Most of the other airlines are targeting the higher yield travellers. The ones for whom schedule, convenience, comfort and time are important. Compare the prices of the airlines I listed above. SQ, CX, ANA, JAL, etc. Rarely are they the cheapest and they are usually quite a bit more expensive than the others yet they still manage to fill their planes.

Is YVR-HKG the only route AC uses the 458 seater on? I didn't know that. Even so, they still compete with a 275 seat CX 77W on that route.

[altiplano]

For Asia that's it... But also yul/cdg. I heard it was in response to Air France running a similar config... It may do one of the LHR flights too...

Hey crazyaviator. Thanks for chiming in. I hope you don't take it personally when I say to go fūck yourself.