gonnabeapilot wrote:...At present Air Canada offers a lot better product than competitors flying transborder and international routes. Sorry but you'd have to pay me some pretty good money before I'd volunteer to suffer through the 'service' offered on Air Transat, HMY, Zoom and the like. I don't quite understand why people are cheering for the demise of a carrier whose death will leave them with no other option other than being crammed into a charter cabin with 28" seat pitch. Or perhaps you enjoy paying $5 for a headset to watch the IFE and paying for booze and food?...
I take it you work for AC?
Your ignorance of what other carriers offer is obvious. HMY, for example, offers better service (friendlier cabin crew) than AC including free meals with complimentary wine and 31" seat pitch. Zoom is much the same according to their website.
AC, as I understand it, has perhaps the worst reputation for service on the Asia-Pacific routes.
If you wait to be paid to fly on these other carriers if AC sinks, enjoy the Greyhound I guess.
Air Canada service is to say the least, horrible. Where do they get these FA's? Most of them can't even put together a proper English sentence. The bitterness, the crown mentality, the uniforms, the waste at all levels etc. Everyone seems to forget that they are in the SERVICE INDUSTRY. It's your job, not a place to pout.
What Air Canada needs to do is Fire everyone. Pilots, FA's Techs, Rampies, Check-in staff, Management, you name it. Fire the whole lot. Then re-hire only the best. Hire only the most motivated, enthusiastic, energetic, service-minded visionaries out there. To hell with the rest. You deserved what was coming to you. Screw your pension too. Start saving like everyone else.
Maybe some other schmuck sucker will throw in another Billion to this ever sinking industry. Profitable Airline ~oxymoron
Time for a "spring cleaning" is what I say. At's what I'm talkin bout...
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...Seems they are going to remove the axe and the control column from the cockpits for security reasons.
Well this site has certainly hit a new low. Supposed professional pilots excited about serious financial harm for others? Do any of you read anything anyone else posts in other threads or just your own little tirades?
Ah yes, but of course, now I understand. The same individuals that scream bloody blue murder about other pilots paying for PPC's to get a leg up on them are the same ones crying in thier beer when they can't get a job flying big iron. Yet they are now the same ones that are gloating and literally foaming at the mouth over the mere prospect that those overpaid "Unionized" slackers at big red might be soon collecting EI. This is somehow a good thing that is going to help your job prospects and secure the aviation industry in Canada?
Sad!
Apart from people who actually KNOW (not think they know) what the hell they are talking about when it comes to ACA's problems, I think the rest of you all had better look at your own house of cards before you castigate the folks at ACA any further. Honestly some of the stuff here is getting ridiculous. I know that for a fact because I once had a buddy who worked...blah blah blah...and I told them to rub salt...blah blah blah..so now I am an expert...blah blah blah. LOL
I'm not very good unionist but I am going to put an thought forward for you guys to think about and you can tell me I'm wrong.
I have seen a lot of talk about how poorly pilots are paid but you put in your time, build those hours, and hope that eventually you will land a higher paying job for a major airline flying (as family man put it) big steel. Well, with the demise of AC those higher paying jobs from this carrier at least, collectively bargain for, will be gone.
The arguement can be made that it was the union that kaboshed this deal, but from my dealings on both ends of the management/Union spectrum one has to know that their is more to this deal than what has been reported. All the variables mentioned sighting the reasons for the pull out are not new, this is history repeating itself from the early 80's. Li is reportedly still in this deal until the end of April though he has allowed AC to look for other investors. The ink is on the paper, but it's not dry yet.
While I am not necessarily a staunch union supporter, I don't think it is the union that brought the company down to this point. However, it seems to be the only variable in the equation that can be changed to try to get them out of this current mess. If AC had a sound business model to begin with, they wouldn't have arrived at the pile of sh*t they are in now. While the union is overly inflexible, and has too much power, they are not the sole reason, nor do I think the biggest reason for the troubles of AC.
The biggest problem has been the management over the years. Their decision to takeover Canadian was a big mistake. While I thought Canadian was a much better airline in terms of service, they were screwed financially from the beginning when PWA took over CP. THat would be like Jetsgo buying out the current AC. That is where the problem started. If CP had gone under back in the 80's, we wouldn't be in this mess today. SO when Canadian was on the brink, now AC takes on this huge debt load and it all goes downhill from there. Management made a very poor decision, and continued to make poor decisions. Get rid of Milton and they might have a chance. The unions are part of the problem, but far from most of the problem.
-wp
ps...i am flying overseas on AC today, so i hope they are at least around for another month so I can get home!
.......when for example WestJet, JetsGo all employ contract bag handlers.. The cost to employ the unionized bag guys and gals cripples AC on revenue and thereby limits the true competition they can offer. (This is of course just one example)
I must disagree. Most of Westjet bag handlers are not contract peole but Westjetter. Of course being Westjetters they do receive profit sharing twice a year and are free, and encourage, to participate in the company "Employee Share Program". Some airports do have contracted worker (Such as YQU, for example) but the need for more Westjetters at these places is ever growing.
I do agree that union in general do not look for the welfare of the company and it's workers but mostly their own and politics. The result is what we see today.
Job Location: Calgary
Job Category: Operations , Customer Service Agent/Airports
Just as the Indy 500 race car drivers rely on pulling into the pit to be serviced by their pit crew safely and efficiently, so do WestJet Pilots. They pull into the ramp (our very own huge pit) to be serviced by our amazing pit crew. The race isn’t won only because of the driver but
because of the team. The same is true in the airline industry.
Role Purpose: Provide outstanding customer service to all WestJet guests by providing safe and efficient handling of Guests baggage and cargo while adhering to all Ramp/Airside methods and standards.
Role Description:
* Marshal aircraft in and out of ramp area safely.
* Operate and position all airside equipment.
* Perform basic baggage equipment maintenance checks and fueling.
* Perform aircraft de-icing.
* Prepare, loading and unload baggage from aircraft.
* Ship and receive cargo.
* Service Aircraft Lavatories and Water.
* Communicate pit loading counts and procedures with AGS (Airport Ground Support) and flight crews.
* Valid driver’s license and clean driver’s abstract.
* Able to obtain a Transport Canada Security clearance and AVOP (Airside Vehicle Operations Permit) license.
* Able to lift 100 lbs repetitively.
* Able to bend, kneel, crawl, stoop, and climb repetitively.
* Must be physically fit and able to pass a medical.
* Able to work shift work, nights, weekends, holidays and over time.
* Basic computer skills required.
* Demonstrate a passion for providing outstanding customer care.
* Able to adhere to WestJet safety policies while performing assigned duties.
* Prepared to work outside in all climatic conditions.
* Able to work in confined spaces.
I agree with what most of you are saying that unions often get to the point of being destructive and not productive for both the parties they represent and the companies they are associated with. However, having said that, I have a major problem with some of the other stuff being thrown about in this string.
The thing that troubles me most is the attitude that Air Canada is nothing but a destructive force in this countries aviation industry. The other problem I have is the idea that the industry will thrive with AC's demise.
I have no problem admitting that eventually the industry in Canada would bounce back maybe with more jobs than ever. The question I ask is without a company that actually provides their employees with an above average lifestyle what will the rest of us be making in this "new-age" in Canadian aviation? Right now Air Canada provides the only check and balance to our salaries in the country. Without pilots being paid good money employers suych as WestJet and Jetsgo are free to pay their pilots whatever they choose.
This attitude that we are somehow over paid is f*&kin ridiculous!!!!! What nobody ever seems to address is that for most of us we spend the first 5-15 years of our careers making peanuts!!!! Average it out, we make what most highly trained professionals should be making over the course of a career. The fact that towards the end we make more than others should not matter. The notion that a pilot should sacrifice for 10 years getting his/her career started and then go to work for a company that pays them so little they have to take out a line of credit to survive is absolutely insane!!!! (Stock options or no stock options) And whats more insane is that we pilots seem to flock to defend these companies with the lower wages everytime!!! What bizarro world do we live in!? What happens when the stock starts to go down?? Do you ever here these words utterred by a WJ employee??? I havent. Heres my prediction once the days of 2 year upgrdes are gone (which they will be), and the stock goes down (which it will), the whole "ra ra WJ" attitude will be replaced by a "this sucks why am I working for no money with no pension!!!" attitude!
Anyways this is my two cent, I invite any criticism of my views.
My faith in "professional pilots" is redeemed! Some of you actually get the big picture. You had me really scared there for a month or two.
Read this carefully:
Anonymous forums are the modern day devils playground! Nobody is actually accountable for what they say. They could be totally manipulating the masses under the guise of "concern". It is not above "union busters" or "union recruiters" to sow the seeds of discontent to further thier own agenda!!!
Know this, history is always written by the triumphant. Its basically the golden rule: those with the gold make the rules. Apply this to any forum of a specific occupation and you end up with a potential whirlwind of sympathetic supporters each with his own like agenda. There will not normally support the contrary opinion. In physcological circles this is called a "mob mentallity".
Thank goodness in Canada we are usually adept at avoiding this.
BTW ask yourself who the hell am I? 4 posts you'd better question what I say...right?
Of course being Westjetters they do receive profit sharing twice a year and are free, and encourage, to participate in the company "Employee Share Program".
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't WJ force, not encourage, the new pilots to "participate" in the share program for your first two years. In turn, dropping the f/o's take home to some $850.00 or so per period.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't WJ force, not encourage, the new pilots to "participate" in the share program for your first two years.
We are not forced to participate. It only makes sense to participate. If you did the full 20%, after only THREE years you'd have $64,000.00 put away for your retirement. This doesn't even count profit sharing and stock options.
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If you're not bored, you're scared....... I'd rather be bored.
The only places that are going to scoop up AC pilots is going to be a major carrier in my opinion... which unfortuneatly is closing the doors of advancement once again... the lower levels will still get openings... an Air Taxi operator is not going to hire a 7000 hour airbus captain or FO who for the past several years has had everything done for them... load and tie down baggage, take crap from your passengers, you can't stay behind a locked cabin door on a Navajo until the plane has emptied out!!
You can bet the federal government will be in this one in a big behind the scenes way with two possible outcomes.
Consider the principal reason why airlines exist; to get people where they need to be to conduct business. If AC ceases to operate who is going to move business people around this country and the world? WJ, Jetsgo, et al don't come close to having the necessary capacity, and they won't have the ability to obtain it overnight. Even if they can grow themselves to fill the void it will take at least a year or two, maybe longer. What happens to the Canadian economy in the meantime?
The feds have two options; the first and most likely is to prop up AC with interm financing, loan guarantees, grants, etc. to keep in running and able to attract the necessary investment. This option protects control of the domestic transporation system, and also plays well in Ont and PQ in the up coming election. An awful lot of voters, and their families, work directly for AC and for companies that supply AC. AC goes down and they lose their jobs. Add a few hundred thousand Aeroplan members who lose their free vacation tickets and you have a lot of p----d off voters.
The second is to allow foriegn (primarily US) airlines to operate in Canada. The danger for up and coming Canadian pilots is that US airlines will mostly employ US pilots. You can also bet that they will want some sort of guarantees or period of exclusivity inorder to justify the investment in building a Canadian route system. Give business passengers 3 to 5 years of membership in some US airlines frequent flyer program and WJ, Jetsgo, and the others will have one heck of a difficult time getting them to switch. With this option you will also see a good percentage of the Canadian domestic support jobs and supply contracts lost to the US.
If AC shuts down it will be bad for the Canadian economy, and absolutely disasterous for the aviation industry. I don't think the federal government, regardless of who wins the election, will allow it happen.
Wilbur you are probably correct with your statements, but how many times does the taxpayer have to take a pounding for this lame horse? Air Canada should have never been allowed to take over Canadian. The government should have stepped in with some help for Canadian, which in my humble opinion was a better airline than AC.
Wilbur wrote:The feds have two options; the first and most likely is to prop up AC with interm financing, loan guarantees, grants, etc. to keep in running and able to attract the necessary investment. This option protects control of the domestic transporation system, and also plays well in Ont and PQ in the up coming election. An awful lot of voters, and their families, work directly for AC and for companies that supply AC. AC goes down and they lose their jobs. Add a few hundred thousand Aeroplan members who lose their free vacation tickets and you have a lot of p----d off voters.
And how many voters will be p----d off when AC uses tax dollars to try and stomp the competition? If AC is to be bailed out, it has to come with alot of strings attached. It is either that or monetary breaks for the industryas a whole.
Good to see they spent a billion dollars on a new terminal.
gonnabeapilot wrote:At present Air Canada offers a lot better product than competitors flying transborder and international routes. Sorry but you'd have to pay me some pretty good money before I'd volunteer to suffer through the 'service' offered on Air Transat, HMY, Zoom and the like. I don't quite understand why people are cheering for the demise of a carrier whose death will leave them with no other option other than being crammed into a charter cabin with 28" seat pitch. Or perhaps you enjoy paying $5 for a headset to watch the IFE and paying for booze and food?
A/C and HMY in the same boat?? I think you mean British or Cathay vs A/C.
Westjet won't hire X AC guys... Think about it.. If it was your company would you hire the guys, who with the power of a greedy union put the last company they worked for under.. NOT LIKELY!!![/quote]
Hmm I won’t bother making any comments on the AC troubles or solutions as others have done a fairly good job of it. However I would like to make a observation concerning the sorry safety state of the industry mostly due to operators trying to operate on a shoestring. This is the downside to low wages, long hours and minimum rest periods in a mix of poor training and supervision.
The most surprising part is that the travelling public either don’t care or are completely oblivious to the unsafe practices of some operators.
The link below is just the tip of the iceberg that is now just starting to emerge in the EU.
WJ may not force their employees to bye stock but really what choice do you have? Purhasing the stock is the only real chance that the employees have at securing some sort of a lifestyle after they retire. Clive must laugh himself to sleep ever night. The stock is being inflated by the employees constantly buying it.
The doomsday scenarion for Clive would be if for some reason the stock went down, (ie. A/C accident, poor quaterly results, etc...) In this case the employees would sell what they have and/or stop purchasing it to begin with. Holy tail-spinning stock batman!! Can you Westjet people honestly tell us that this hasn't crossed you're minds?
Anyways I'm not trying to go out and bash WJ here. Right now its a booming company with lots of exciting times to come. But please bare in mind that AC has been around for 50+ years and WJ has been around for 8!!! All you WJ employees that can't stop bashing AC. Come talk talk to me in 40 years and we'll see if WJ hasn't had some ups and downs!
Anyways, keep the blue over the brown and stay safe!
NOT LIKELY!!![/quote]
